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Talking Images
Talking Images

Episode 54 · 3 months ago

The Disappointment That is Leos Carax' Annette

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Welcome to the episode where Chris realizes he's the only Leos Carax fan in the podcast and even he found Annette thoroughly middling. Join us as we explore just how it let us down and debate the merits of artificiality, THAT puppet and much, much more.

And remember, if you disagree with us you can go to ICMForum.com and tell us just how wrong we are.

You are listening to talking images, the official podcast of I C M Forum Dot Com. Welcome back, everyone. I'm Chris, and this May surprisingly enough, we are most negative episode ever. Why? Because we simply cannot find a single defender of leop products, is artistically ambitious, one, musical and net we know they exist. We've seen them around, including on the I C M Forum. But from the CO host of talking images, or at least those of us have seen it so far, each and every one of us have been left quite well, as you can read from the episode title, disappointed. Why is that? Do we just hate musicals? Are we not big sparks fans? Did charucts just make a bigger dog than polar x? And and apologies and APOL x defenders, and no, they're out there. Did we misunderstand it completely? Oh, and just how disappointed are we? I guess we'll find out and if our takes I know you remember, you can go to I C M for dot com and let us know just how wrong we are. Anyhow, don't worry, it won't be all doom and gloom, since there are no overly positive or supportive voices in this episode. We'll try our very best to be at least nice and highlight what we taught work, because a film with this much talent and so much creativity definitely deserves it, even if, at the end of the day, it left us disappointed. So let's just start by airing our disappointments, as I introduced my very first co host, mature and post the fairly obvious question. How did the net disappoint you? Well, did that support me? I guess I don't know if I if I would say that, because I didn't have that huge expectations. I suppose I was curious about it. I haven't seen any little scarus films, so I can't really speak to that in that area. But I was very curious to see a net and in one way in delivered, because it is a very strange film. It is a very unique film that does its own thing. I guess the issue I have with it is that I did not really love the music. I think the music worked in some spaces, especially the opening and the ending, for what the movie was doing. But I guess I did not really enjoy it that much, which for a music or it's always going to be a bit of a problem. So so that's that's big, big problem. Yes, so that's what I would say by reaction to and it is. It's a film that I find interesting. It's very boldly ambitious, but yeah, I didn't quite embrace it because the music didn't completely convince me. I can see why you weren't that disappointed when you hadn't seen any little scardak films before, because, at least me it's both most talented directors working today and I had such high hopes for our Nett. But to go on to seul here, because I saw his reaction to not having seen any liles caducs movies in the shot. So so, assuming you're a bit of carucs Fan, how disappointed were you with the net just to clarify, I'm actually not a Leo's corrects fan. He has made one really amazing film called lovers on the bridge, which is in the early nineties. That's an absolutely amazing film. I've seen three others now, including a net. So I've seen four of his films in tital and based on what else I'd seen for him and based on all of the acclaim that holy motives got, I wasn't actually expecting a lot from a nette because motives for me is one of those films that's got a really interesting premise and a really interesting lead performance, but a lot of its completely ran him...

...and it ends with the biggest f you that I've ever seen a director give to his audience ever. So I have quite a bit of disdain for Holy Motors. So, given all their claim that holy motives has received whatever, I was approached, and that was some caution. Anyway, I did sort of get my hopes up a little bit. One best director at Khan and then the film came second on the here do cinema list for the year and I thought, all that's quite promised him. We'll see what it's like. And it's got Adam driver in who quite like as an actor. But I would say there's a lot of things which I didn't like about the film. I'd say the most disappointing thing for me was the whole film was built on Artifics, which is quite interesting and things being artificial, but the biggest artifice of the entire film is that the daughter in the film is not a daughter, but there's an animatronic doll instead in lieu of an actress as the toddler, which is the film's biggest weakness because basically they're casting an unexpressive slab of plastic as the daughter, which for me just totally ruined any emotional punch that the film could have possibly had. So quite a few things that didn't rob me the right why, but definitely having the daughter as a slab of plastic was the thing which disappointed me the most about it. Very interesting. Yeah, so I'm the only Leo skarocks Fan in this episode. So it definitely recommend his previous films to mature. And just to show how different we are, Holy Motors is actually among my favorite films after last decade. It and probably placed it in my top five of the last decade. So big disagreements there, but yet we both found a net not to be great, which is quite interesting. So on my part, I think I share what Matria said. I just didn't connect with music and I actually like sparks. I mean I think some of the album especially from the seventies, are really great. Soe. I just most of these songs. Like I think it started with a real proper banger and so maybe start is that it's great. It feels just like the old sparks stuff. And they're actually singing it as well. So that's that. It started off on a fairly did know, at least musically. I think it ended on a good note musically, but the majority of the songs in between that. Some of them are good, a lot of them are just not really catchy. They were not really spelled binding. They were plot focused in a way, I guess, which is good, but they didn't grab me and it lacked that part. I mean, I love artifice. That's why I've had such big hopes for this film, but when the music started failing a little bit for me, that was the main Crox of why this film did not work. That there are a lot of other smaller issues with it. So with the music and not somebody who really tends there's music too much with films. So the songs, for me, I guess, were generally okay, but there was one where I couldn't stop laughing, and it's not meant to be funny, but the place give the Adam drive a Carrg in the third degree and they sing it to him and that's like the most absolutely ridiculous thing I think I've seen in any film, from one that plays singing to him and trying to grill him while they're singing to him and you know, you know, just sort of lost me. And what? This just completely doesn't work for me. Well, how do you guys feel about Jack Doomi write about, because that felt a lot. It felt like they were kind of going for that, with everything being sung including, like you mentioned, the Miranda rightes. Yes, I personally have a lot of troubles with James Musicals. So is a nine with that. But because I assume you're a fan, right. No, actually, I like Jack. To me, I don't hate his musicals, but now I would actually never been a big fan of his musicals and it is part of that style where every line is song. That didn't quite work for me with his films as well. That might actually be an overlap there, because I have heard that it is inspired by the meat to an extent. So yeah, that could definitely an issue and I guess you can see that anything...

...me fans should not give up on watching, and that just because really writing it. So just to try. I mean, I haven't seen umbrellas in a long time. I guess. Sort have seen in about fifteen years ago, and I guess you're on the basic consider everything being sung. I don't remember that much about it. I liked enough the time. I didn't absolutely love and I'll probably actually put in a model shop as my favorite a Jacques Demi film, which is obviously a bit different to the films that he is best known for. That's why I wouldn't necessarily say it to a disappointment for me because again, I thought it was very interesting film and especially visually. I think you know, sort mentioned between best director in in can and I think that's a deserved price. It would not have been my choice out of the films that worked can that I've seen, but it's as a choice I get because I think what does visually is quite interesting in the way that the family is kind of a meeting between that the rock opera, right, like the WHO, the Tommy on the wall, Piping Flreud, and kind of classical opera. In a sense, what you have literally playing an opera singer, and I think those scenes where he really uses this kind of esthetic of the opera. I think of the scene on the boat. You have this background that look kind of like the fake what you mentioned, the artificiality, but I think it works quite well for a scene like that and, unlike soul, I acreally think the puppets, you know, the the the conceit, to have a net being a puppet actually works for the film, especially because where it goes. But I guess we'll discuss that later. Yeah, and I just added I completely I agree, and just to be clear, I did not hate and I loved which als there are spectacular. So the shots of the for instance, are are incredible and I think it really went for it in so many ways it's including the choice of having a child played by a puppet. For me it worked as well. I love that kind of the fast and it also had a really strong payoff, which we won't get into right now. But still, this wasn't just the music that was a slight problem for me, and well, a lot of the visuals were spectacular. I did actually have some issues with the visuals at points as well. I think the moment that I actually started to be a little bit worried I wouldn't love met the film, not not the puppet, was actually almost at the very, very beginning, where you have this metha element, you have sparks in the studio, you have Leos crroks having a cameo as a music producer. It's before this great opening Song Sombe started actually kicks off. It's it's that part of the conceit is really interesting. But that part of the film is also shot almost like it was a backstage music video, like behind the scenes of the music video. That this really rapid digital cuts, which didn't really work for me in it. And even once, you know, sparks started getting up of their shares, you know, standing up seeing the song, they walk out, the actors come in, that didn't fill me with awe the way that type of opening scene should have felt, even though the song itself was great. I think it at that poment I still thought, Oh, this could be a good or really great film. I was starting to be a little bit concerned because this, like your grand opener and the way it was shot, almost felt like the opener to a really good TV show, for instance, like if the TV show was doing musical number like this. It didn't feel that awe of you know, the master that Leo, at least to me, Leo's crux is. It didn't strike me as visually as he usually does either. So at that point I started to get word that. Okay, this might not be even with even though the song is great, even though a lot of things are still going really well, there might be some issues going on here. I was one of the first, second Christ because we love a Nett, I mean the baby. Right, it's so it must be true. I disagree with you on the opening. I think the opening it's maybe better in my imagination that it is in reality, I guess. But I think it's good. I think comparing it to the opening of it issue, I mean the great TV shows.

I guess in that sense I think it's it's yeah, I really don't see what you're saying. With the way it's filmed, I think it works pretty well. The long tape and again, the artificiality. What the theater took kind of presenting what they're going to do. Oh, yeah, absolutely not. Just to be clear, I'm not. I'm not saying I think it's that scene is actually good. And they're saying it didn't have the grandeur I would have expected from karacs. It looked like something on a smaller bud set or a little bit simpler than I what would have expected him to do, especially after in all the elaborateness of all the motors, but obviously he gets there later in the film. It does all the quizt visual stuff, but that was a little bit not let down, but I was a little bit concerned it wasn't going in all out visually right there and those early fast digital huts also didn't deliver that well for me. I know you didn't have that big expectations, mayre, but at what moment did you start to realize that this wouldn't be a great film for You? I guess I had trouble just getting into the film. Aside from that opening. The opening grabbed me, but then the film kind of lost me in the thirty minutes that followed. I suppose the Song Right, we all we love each other so much song. I get what it's doing and I get looking back at it, I think it's supposed to feel Wong right. It's supposed to feel like very performative, very trying to convince themselves as much as they're singing to the public. But yeah, I think it's it sounds like that. That's what I mean when I said I love the music, the repetitiveness. I get what it's doing on a conceptual level, but it's not very enjoyable and I guess that's the sequence where the film lost me the most. Also, and I'm driving as a stand up. I guess I'm thinking, well, who would go see at her? She seems awful. I don't know. He doesn't very funny. It's IT'S A it's a dominant pick. It's again it's a very artificial fame. I'm not saying we need to buy in the reality of it entirely, but yeah, I guess I had trouble connecting with the film because of some of those elements. Yeah, I think I felt somewhat similar to I actually didn't think he was well, I don't think it's that convincing as a standard, but that was really impressed by how my who just really went for it in those scenes and what he was doing there. I thought it was like again, the endergry was a little bit off. I didn't quite by him as a standard comedian either, but I really appreciated how we just went all for it. Yeah, Adam drivers, comedy, stand up comic scenes were definitely one of the biggest issues of the film for me, because the way the film instruction is sort of like a variation on a star was born. We have the up and coming artist who then is down for but the thing is we never actually see Adam driver as a good stand up comedian. Always see him as is, as a desperate, failing, unfunny comic. He is reduced to performing half nude in desperation and I think if we saw some of his success beforehand, if we saw him as actually a good standard comedian, I think he would have made he his talent, his character regression, a bit more interesting. But we only ever see him as a failing, you know, sort of has been reduced to performing half nude. We don't actually see him as something successful. So the character art for me never worked as much as I think I had the potential too with a slight or right. I actually disagree there so well. I mean I agree that the comedy performance is kind of failing, but I think that first scene is meant to be his success story because they had that even the meet up afterwards. Knew though. He says, I killed them, and I think that was actually meant to be his really successful performance, setting him up as this provocateur performer, because that's kind of his whole image. And Yeah, I just don't think that went that well either. I don't think it was convincing enough. But you know, I actually do think they wanted that to be his big show, his success. Yeah, he's definitely meant to be successful, like the audience is responding exactly the way he wants, right. So, yeah, Oh wow, if that's really he'd like successful or whether. I can't imagine what would be like when he hits rock bottom, because, yeah, it's definitely not what we do. Seem to get rock bottomed,...

...but not so much in terms of giving like a bad comedy show. I mean like that's going to be good comedy show. I can't imagine what a bad one looks like. Yeah, I think this is the most scathly criticism so far. The show Adam driver as a comic and his opening was so poor that salt didn't even realize that it was meant to be good within the film's universe. So that's that might make Lioskaras at night, but salt, to ask you the same question I asked the mature at what point in the film did you realize that this would not be a great film for You? I don't know. I'm tempted to say that part with Adam driver performing half nude. But that was probably the first thing for me that, you know, I maybe this isn't going to quite be what I'm gonna like when we have this slab of plastic that sted out as being the daughter. I think for that was kind of one of the points wherem like, you know, this isn't going to be interesting film for me if we can't actually relate to an emotional level because the Leo's crux is so obsessed with artifacts. There's only going to put somebody in who's capable of delivering human emotions. So I mean that was bad for it. But looking even like the thing like them around the rights or whatever, and song like, there's all these parts in it where my heart kept skipping a beat. I'm going like yeah, no, no, no, no. That's when most of the film going. You know, maybe this will been sticks out of hands, got interesting things in it, but by the end of it I'm like, you know, it really hasn't really done anything for me. So I don't know. I'd probably say the Adam driver part was probably the part of the performing I'm half nude that first got me worried. But there's just so many things along the way where I'm going here. No, I don't think this is going to be a film which I'm gonna end up liking. We've covered some of it already and for you that pup it seems to be the clear spoiler element there. But what other things was it that, for you, stopped on that from being a great work? And we'll get into the past different try to look at what actually makes it worth the one they stand to another letter. I'm not sure what else I could say specifically that made it not work for me, but I guess maybe just the whole artifacts thing didn't quite strike me the way they would like it too. I mean I'm not a big fan of Holy Motors, but my next favorite Krus film, after lovers on the bridge, would be Movo Sung which he did in the nineteen eighties, and that's just got some really amazing very simple special effects. Like you've got the league guy throwing a pen up and it goes up off screen, it drops stars and outputs, throws something else up, it goes up off screen and it drops down as something else. So we've got this some of these very light, simple special effects there, which all of that to do was basically have somebody above the camera patch an object and drop another object down and with such simple effects that artifacts is just so magical in Movo Sung. And then we've got this artifice which is just so extremely over the top with all the singing, with the theoretics, with the breaking the fourth wall, with the animatronic doll. It's just so over the top the in the net that the magic isn't really quiet there the same way. I mean I don't know how it's I can really explain it, but it's just so naturally why it happens in more a sung and the way that it happens in the net just seems so forced, I guess, for lack of a better word. No, no, I get that. I actually completely disagree, but I'll bring that up in this section. We talk about what we think works from that. Going back to the music a little bit, I actually really listened to a soundtrack before this episode and I listened to the short version of four team in the conversion and it's pretty okay. It has a great opener, a great closer, some relatively good stuff in between. Some of it just doesn't work like I think that the pivotal thing and we get it that it's boil territory...

...on the boat where you know they're singing. We're essentially it's just again repetition and it's essentially at a driver going I'm not that drunk, I'm not that drunk, and that's kind of the references like really basic and it's not catchy. I think that's a big issue. But it's worth noting that the full soundtrack is two hours long. So when they tried to make this essentially leible as good as possible, they trimmed it down to round forty three minutes and it more or less works. But the full soundtrack of the full scene like that Mirund the right section with the police, for instance, are not on this short version. So they essentially cut out most of the song numbers from it, and I think that says says a little bit about just how not everything necessarily works, and I just think that, yes, there was so many numbers there that just aren't and that that's a relative problem. I actually do have within me, going back to that point earlier where much of the singing is that our destined stand out as a musical? Maybe that is an issue I have that I want the songs in the musical to actually be catchy rather than just being a natural part of the narrative. But that was an issue for me here. And a second issue I actually had, and we might disagree a little bit on it, but I think that the way they used the Simon Hell Brooks character, which is kind of like the third lead of sorts in the first part of the film, was a little frustrating because he has this connection to Ann, played by Marincotlark, but he's never really seen with her. He's in the opening scene and it's essentially not there and I think it's one or two times you kind of check in with him for a couple of minutes. It's like this guy also exists in our universe and it might be relevant later, and that that felt a little after me. So that there were all of these other little things that didn't quite work. That, I would say, the music not standing out was the biggest issue for me with the net so because you didn't like the scene with someone help is directing, directing exactly word. You know, you know what I mean. I think this song there is pretty good, but function is just I'm here, this is what I'm doing, I exist and narratively. I wouldn't like to see him involved in some way previously with these characters because it just feels so disjointed at that point. The scene is so perfectly okay, but just his character, the way it's used, is just feels I mean, I guess they acknowledge it with that scene that he is disjointed and he just exists on the sidelines, but it just didn't quite work for me. That's funny because I really like that scene. I think that it's it's one of the false things that I think a prety grate in the film and I think musically it's actually one of the best moments in the film, right with the choirs, and I also feel with us and that I feel like if he only had that scene, it would be better just this moment with this this side character, and I like less the you know, when he comes back later. Yeah, we'll get into having to get a spoiler the territory, but I agree there as well. I think a lot of that was very, very clunky. But before we get to the spoilers section, let's try to bring up some of the good stuff. So you mentioned this thing in Salmon Heldberg. It is good. I agree with you there. I will mention the exact opposite of what's all so that I actually think the artifice is probably one of the best things with this film. It works to a large extent. Some of the shots are incredible and I actually really like the way a net is used, that is to say the baby. I think that it is aerie. It's a little bit unnerving. Like it just as to the oddness of everything, especially when the baby actually starts to sing. Yeah, I think it's very eye catching, it's very gripping and it's it's not the realistic film. Everything is out of it artifice. So I never bother me for a second that the baby is just at all, and I think it's that hardness with it. It adds something very unique to the film. And another thing I really love for it is how every single person involved just...

...really really went for it. Adam driver with the stand up comedy routine, even though it doesn't really work, he went there. You could see he tried to act the hell out of that scene. Martin Cottlard goes for it at every point too, and this is just a trivia, but I know that Simon Helberg literally changed his citizenship to be able to be in this film because he was so induced. So it's it's really clear that every single person involved this film really believed it, really gave it everything they had. Oh and that's this true. It might be a little bit. You know, there one knows that Simon Helberg actually became French and lived there and learned the language, or that he would essentially help have enough French people in the film to get funding. When Marincott Lard went came on board, all of those efforts kind of weren't needed, but he actually went that far just to be able to get that role. It's very committed. Man. That's kind of amazing that I haven't heard that right because and it was nominated for a bunch of Caesar and stuff and weirdly it wasn't talking about that much. I guess it is quite interesting how different my take is to Chris's take on having a doll there for baby in it. And Look, I agree it adds to the winds of the film and is a bit of a strange film. When I guess having that in there does make a little bit unusual. It does sort of fit in that way because it is part about the artifact, but I guess for me it's just the emotion, or the emotional attachment isn't there. I mean the one thing about the film that does work for me, even though we don't really see his full character, arc is Adam driver's performance. You know, that's for me, probably the best thing about the film. And yet I had a lot of time trying to buy his feelings for his baby girl when his baby girl is a slab of plastic. And you know what springs to mind for me is there's a great comedy that came out a couple of years ago called Greener Grass. You take on like suburban soccer moms or whatever, and we've got this one that mum who is trying to pretend him an extra baby. So she takes a soccer ball and puts it under a dress, pretends it's her baby, and then she gives birth to and she carries it around. Doesn't literally give birth to it, but she carries it around the soccer ball like a baby and she has like photographs of it like a baby. Everybody reacts to the soccer ball and pretends that it's like a baby, even though it's a soccer ball, and that's a sort of feeling that I had with the net that everybody's reacting to it being a child with expressions and emotions, when it very clearly isn't. And Yeah, I guess for me that's really hard, especially when my one into the film was Adam driver's character, and yet I couldn't really get that into it because he's acting along alongside a slum plastic. Well, absolutely married your appreciation for Adam driver there. I do think that his performance is the best in the film, as well as the highlights of the film. And, like I said, he really gave his all here and he has all too those to Adam driver. He went for everything and some of it is sells really, really well. And I can only repeat my disagreement with Sol here that when the film is almost entirely artifice, or so largely artifice as there is, I think the baby fits and don't think we'll see eye to eye on that. That's there's some differences in taste as well. It's all brought in the comma that you don't have the eternal round you, the fan and every single one of the you know, top top films, the every just get into these topics of artifice as well. So it makes sense that we have this disagreement, but to die even more into a net. Let's put a quick spoiler warning here, because obviously a lot of things happened as the film progresses. There's especially one really sharp turn that changes almost everything. So if you have not yet seen a net and our complaints have not stopped different wanting to see it, just go often watch it and then return to this podcast.

So quick spoiler warning, spoiler warning. And so let's continue. Let's dive into this whole part, the latter part where Adam driver like it's played off as if we don't know if it's a full on accent or if he actually murders her but falls off the boat due to his drunken madness. Coming back to that song, I'm not that drunk. I don't remember what the song is actually called, but at that moment that song really didn't work for me. And Die. She's swallowed by the sea. Henry McHenry, which is Adam driver's character, go on a lifeboat there and they go up on essentially this I don't know what you would even call it. Are On this rock in the middle of the sea and thinks he is having some sort of how loose not trip. When I met the baby starts to sing and there's also an element here of magic and it's there as some apparition or ghost saying she will haunt him. What's happening with an Equ seen as perhaps a possession, perhaps some kind of divine revenge? Something is happening here. She sings beautifully. To an extent, I don't think the songs and that have really worked for me personally, but there is this big moment of seeing that something unique is happening here. And suddenly we're in the show based world. Simon Helberg is back, they're traveling around the world showing off baby and that is a big, big success. The film is has taken out completely different gear. So let's dive into this second half of the film where baby and that really takes the center. I Guess Saul will hate this have more than anything else, because it's just more plastic puppet. So let's start with you, Matt. You how do you feel about the second act? Actually, I think I like the second act better. It's weird. When I think of a net I think of a lot of moments that worked for me and I guess there's this moment are more in the first half, aside from the ending, right, because I think of the boat scene, right, the scene where dies, the birth of the net, I think, is one of the better songs in the end of the film. I think of the opening and I think of the ending. And yet I think the film works better when you think about it as a tragedy purely centered on damn driver, right on him and Marcoti are being really a secondary character, which, of course, is what the second half brings, since she's dead. And I think regarding Annette and the artificiality of her being a puppet, I think it really pays off with the ending. The ending, to me, is the best moment of the film. Musically, it works well. Duets are is very powerful and you really get to this whole point of the Annett's being a puppet. Right. It's because both of her parents are really seeing her, or not seeing her, as a human being really and that she's being manipulated, she's being a puppet for both of them, him in life and her in Fath right. You mentioned and it being possessed, and I think that's definitely the idea that her singing is a way for the Bayakotia character to hunt than driver, and so I think the ending is really good because it brings an end to that right it's her rebelling against both of them in a way. So I think, dramatic speaking, the second part of the film is more interesting. However, it doesn't into the problem that you mentioned with the music, which is the repetition, I think, especially the scene where Simon helberger comes to see Adam driver and he ends up murdering him. I don't know what that adds, I think. Yeah, I guess I'm curious what you guys think about that scene, because I think there's a lot of kind of filler essentially in the second half. It's less interesting visually and and musically than what I was going on in the first part, which doesn't all work for me at all, but is, I think, more interesting. I think conceptually the second half is better, but in practice I prefer the first half simply because I thought Marycott Lord did bear real well at what the balance between her...

...and Alan driver again work with well, the artifice and also the fakeness of the relationship and everything going on there, and I thought that when Marincottlard just disappears. More or less. The film lots something and I have to say no offense to Simon Helberg and no changed his citizenship. I know how far he went to get this role, but he is a very poor replacement of Marycott Lard as the secondary lead and that's essentially what he becomes in this third half and it doesn't carry it as well. conceptually it works. You've discovered that essentially he was a lover of Ann, of sorch. There's even this play that he could be a then real father. I do think that the murder, conceptually it works again, I think. I think it adds something because that is the moment where essentially Adam driver just becomes completely unchanged. He is a killer now. The the murder of Anne or the death of Anne, we're not sure if that was an accident or not. Essentially it's his fault, but in many ways it's next to it. Now he's a full blown cold hearted murderer and that changes his arc is to start is the fully complete start of his downfall. So so, in term of a plot thing, that really works. But I hated that scene. I think the singing in that scene was so poor, the fact that he just keeps dipping down Heilberg's head down into the water. It felt so clunky. All the dialogue between them. Were they singing that scene? It felt so clunky and off. So I did not care that much for that scene. But I think what the film is doing in the second half conceptually really works and I really agree with that ending is really strong. I think the Simon Helberg murder scene is quite pivotal because it really establishes Henry McHenry as somebody deeply flowed doing bad things on purpose, as we said before the death of his wife. We're not sure how much of it's a drunken accident how much of it's permoseful with intent, but what happens with Simon Hillberg at the poor that actually is the intent in there. So I guess that portrays him as it's definitely a highly flawed character, but still somebody who I guess US and sympathy for. I mean, for me what works about the second half of the film are the scenes with him in jail towards the end. I think the height of you know, drives performance for me and it's sort of where we get away from the acting opposite a Slat of plastics. So for me, I guess the second half was probably strong. With me, I don't know. I wasn't really a fan of either half of the film. I guess by the second half of the film I'd resigned myself to the fact that's only going to be a five out of ten for me. So maybe I had a bit more hope. So during the first half, I guess overaw Ma refer the second half. I'm not sure. They probably not about the same level for me, and I am happy to finally do pinpointing. Did something all of us can agree on, which is that ending, because that is possibly the best scene in the field. I mean it's the big payoff and while for me the puppet work, seeing the puppet change into a real person, I think what you said earlier mayor, about her essentially rejecting both the ghost of Fan and Henry McHenry, the boat for her parents and standing up for herself, that was like the way it's shown from changing from the puppet to being a real person that do at almost everything in that final scene really worked for me. I think the song is probably the second best after the opener, as well so essentially the film that starts off really well, it ends really well, but then I have this struggle in the in the middle. But I think that everything you guys saying are true about that thing. It's it's absolutely resonant and it pulls everything together and it's just such a perfect conclusion to the to the work. So accudos to that at least. I don't have much of the value to add, Chris, but you just reminded me that Adam driver's character is named Henry McHenry, and I think that's h is whether or not that some purpose. I mean, I guess you to stay UPIC. Yeah, I agree to the ending. It's great. It really makes me...

...wish. I guess that's the way I feel about in general. I keep thinking of moments that are great and I did like to think over all, but obviously I didn't love it and I think if if I could isolate these moments and negate it to a movie, maybe it would be a great movie. But yeah, I don't think. I think if I watch it I would feel pretty much the same. Yeah, it's interesting to talk about rewatching it and knowing everything that happened and and knowing like because obviously, for me, I came in hoping for I feel I would really love and hoping for essentially one of my favorite films of the year based on just how much I generally love Therese carducs. So going in with low expectations this time I might find more things I liked. So on a Rewatch, maybe this will end up being a fairly good movie for me. I'll have to see. I'm not sure how well that music it's going to work out the second time around, though, if you never even really talked about works, like, how do you guys feel about s works, because I actually, at least for a lot of their seventies works, I really liked them. I think some of the albums are again only great. So I was really is the pointed that not more of their songs there? Stood doubt when we're gotting sparks. I just had never heard of them before I met and I haven't really tried to listen to more. I didn't think the music was great, except for a few moments. I know they're featured in honey motors, right, I think, and I will definitely watch that at some point, so maybe it would change opinion. Yeah, when I Chris pised this question. I jumped on a wikipedia to read up about sparks because, like mature I don't know much about them. I've probably heard several other songs, which is the case for a lot of bands, but I just don't follow music as closely as I follow films. So generally I find it you're really hard to talk about musicians off hand, Um, unless I especially well known. That's perfectly fair. I guess that's not a thing too, because liking sparks at least a certain extent, there are actually one of the bigger bands of the seventy in terms of a claims. So I might actually like them a little less than the consensus and I would definitely recommends checking out the album skim one in my house, and propaganda, for sure, both from seventy four really interesting albums, depending on what you like. They're they're like glad and I know and I know that made a documentary about them. Yeah, that's almost just called sparks, right. I haven't seen that one yet. It's called the sparks brothers. Yeah, I'll definitely check that out, and that's also from two thousand and one. So it would be really interesting, especially as we're obviously prepping for our favorite films one episodes as well. So we're just watching all of the one films we can get their hands on and with that tease of what's coming up later this year, and you should definitely look forward to between, we might even manage to see even more films preparation for this episode than last year. I think the only spoiler you have so far is that I met will not be on any of our top lists because, again, you know, just look at this episode title. But, like they talked about, it has a strong opener, a strong closer. There's a lot of interesting is going on here and everyone involved clearly through their best at it and try to make this work and, as we also mentioned, it has gotten great acclaim across the Board. There's fans everywhere. So if you're one of those fans and you want to argue with us, I'll just open invitation once more. Come on I cm forum dot com. There will be a thread for this, so you can just jump right in there and just start disagreeing with us. So thank you so much for listening and I guess you might see you soon. You have been listening to the talking images, the official podcast of I C M Forums Dot Com.

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