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Episode 8 · 1 year ago

Mainstream Cinema: the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode Tom, Sol and Matthieu attempts to figure out what "Mainstream Cinema" even is.

You are listening to talking eviction.The Fishel Pot got the ICMPOR dotcom, welcome back everyone and Tom, andtoday we are going to explore the world of mainstream cinema dalving into ourthoughts on the topic and exploring the merits and the negative attributes offilms that fall into this category. For those that have been listening sincethe very first episode, you may remember that Gaury introduced thephrase mainstream trash when we were talking about our film journeys.However, there is much more to mainstream cinema than this aspect andwe expirted to explore an area of cinema that weave only briefly touchedupon in our POCAS. So far, I am joined today with my grilliant cohost soul andmate, who was joining us for the very first time. So, if you'd like toIntroduce Yourself Matthew, yeah, thank you. Hi Toim at you, Oticok on theGampon IAM vench like Clem, second Frenchman on the Water Iget, I'm sitingin for him a'm a much more recent silatile and most of you guys have onlyreally gotten into Shim around two thousand and fifteen everything. Sovery ricent- and I guess I no e muchless experience than many of you,but I am passionatal so so I'm very excited to atebakn this. That's greatwe're happy to have you here and over to you, so I'm sold from Australia IAMthirty three years old, I've been into cinema for nineteen years, so it'sgreat to have. Everyone on board will start out with a little round tablejust to discuss our views on mainstream cinema and perhaps explore the angledfits not all mainstream cinemas trash. So I'm looking forward to seeing whatexamples people may have if high quality famous films that fall in themainstream so mafy, if you are happy to start thatd be great. So I guess Idon't particularly think that mentions iio this trash. I guess there is a lotof trush in mensin cinema, but I guess thereil a lot of Trush in INA ingeneral, but it is true that mentiond Omabecod it is so pervasive andunavoidable when there is Frash it's hard to avoid. So obviously we get moretect with that and with the idea of differentiating also Hundar tatintedyeah. There's plenty of mention Yonno, I lon and I think, there's a bit of aquestion about what mantion Omay is. Is it just bloodbusterd or a larger thingthan that? TEVERSO man, iome comedies WH, one example? I guess for me wouldbe something like the blues, Wather th, the very mainstream comedy which I love.I guess I grew up with it and I think that also an important part of whatkind of link US witmanshim cinema is that often it's the stuff. We grew upwith Liht, because, obviously, when you're, like ten years old you're, notgoing to be watching Dakman no hn like you're, not going to be watching verydifficult tin to access they're going to be watching manton cinemas. In asense, it's what we all started with to vious extents. I guess for action, fansan example of mentoa hat. I beally love is the Matrix and I think the Matrix isan interesting example in that the fact that it is manstream is kind of thepoint, because it has I very universal, a message and I think the way in whichit's Adreptis the world at Lorde is, I mean the fact that his mentioned cinemais really important to it. t an to get at of what the thim is, and I thinkthat's an affect that we can't really overlook, as opposed to Aser Fela,which is great also that has different quadite. I thought it was a veryinteresting topic: Mainstream Cinema, because I'm not sure myself whatmainstream sinema means. I define that by films, Thoure just playing inregular cinemas or ag supposed to films that are playing an arthouse cinemas. Ataste have changed quite a bit overtime. It was just interestedin Hersom, likecohost comments, like Matthew, talked about mainstress inoer being the stuffthat we grew up with. They were saying that ten years old, nobs reallywatching experimental films actually started watching films like ErnchinaAndelo from Louis Buniele and films like original Noscorado, very early Ono.My cinema going journey so wanted to see where thelmass hade progressed fromE. It's just interesting a concerning what actually mainstream cinema is likeit's greater hear from Sole Matthew and their experiences with mainstreamcinema and how it has a great impact in shape in our ou viewing habits from ayounger age. If you think about it, when you're firstgening into cinema, alot of your idols will be people like James Bond, Indiana, Jones, Luke, SkyWalker, because they're what you exposed to at a young age and it Actsasa gateway into cinema, and this is in a way very similar to younge audiencesnow digest in the marvel film n...

...idolizing. The T E super heroes thatagrats in the big screen. So often these days yeah, I guess hone effect wecan go into if we're talking about. You know I don' and the way it is now I thecompariton that is often made between superhero movies now and Western inMagrifistes I mean, I think the comparison has some issues, but in asense it is kind of Thismainstreamis, honor t the main successful joun womenand there are some valiations on Ittet. We are seeing that can be more or lessinteresting and yet the way in which it impacts younger people, I think is- ismenevant. I think in twenty years wel see that maybe sometimes that we don'tnecessarily think of as been that importance. We'vl become part of theCanon. I guess that's another aspect of mentioned cinema. It is ever changing.What is man Fishnaman now might not be that othat way. Tomorow and similarly Imean Sion Fin in general, now it' top Mainstrem to watch them, but obviously,and the twenties and EDECTI TEV mention cinemo. I don't know but Nocharto, butyou know likethe Itoad. I now that not man thim, but at the time it we or evenfrom a country to another like Um di an gibly, is definitely mainstream inJapan. I mean Tute. The way thit they must except follow one of the mostsuccesful teams ower time, but in the U S or in Europe. Gibly is more of ateihiing think thit's, a very good point from Matthew. That's one of thereasons why I've had a real hard time getting my head around this concept ofmainstream cinema. I think Mainstrem CIEMA only exists in the mind becauseit jas change, and not just over time. It's with things like the awards. Films,like the artist and even parasite, I think, are now mainstream films. 'causethat won the best Pictosca thetv started being showing in cinemaseverywhere, can buy them working by the artist at least on vd everywhere. Soit's widely known, so that's changed just overnight or just over a period ofmonths suddenly become mainstream. Think also about the STUDO Gibley films.I think it's another really good example, or something which might notbe instream over here, but would be a mainstream over there. A D, I guess,with a lot of the astralian films that I see in cinemas. Although I see on DVd over here wet things, werehe would find quite exotic if youw're shownoverseas, whereas it's just an everyday film toming over here. That's aninteresting point that you make about Parsidsoul. I looked it. Obviously, afilm that unexpectedly entered into the mainstream because of the wardsrecognition it receives and o allows it to reach a wide audience, an it's greatwhen international films do that, because it expands the horizons. IfMovie Gareas, you perhaps wouldn't usually take a punt on a South Koreanfilm regarding the world, there's also the tiliocategory of Biotique, and youknow what we call word date: those films that are made for the world,which are not necessarily that commercially successful. I mean. Maybethey do fine, but they are very macain tream and often generally, these moviesand t generally feel good movie they'e Gong to come up a lot when you talkwith people who are not particularly signified just watch some movies andgenerally these movies tend to be as popular with the mainstream audience.Also, even if they're not as dig as you know, the big blumberses. That's agreat point matter: 'cause iforone Ave watched a lot of biocics. It's one ofmy er girlfriend's favorite go to Jan Se. We seen most of the big mainstreammalises that cover this territory. Now, even if the film quality isn'tparticularly great from kind of an artist at point of sensibility, he willalways enjoy them. If the story behind it is fascinating, because syou learnedsomething new from it, whereas my view is that the gods of whether thebackground story is fascinating, if it isn't presented in an interesting waythat at captivates me, then unusually kind of disappointed in that regard. SoI'd be curious to hear what your thoughts were on on the bioionthinkwith biopecs Bott of it depends on the person and how well they're known andhow much Tos Li part of popular culture and thing of something like Bohemiam,rhapsody or even a rocket man. I would definitely be one thatae considered bemainstream films case there about asis musicians, singers, whose work is stillplay time and time again. So people know who theyare know about stories,something different like Jefferson and Paris, which is a merchant iovory filmfrom the nineties, might not be so mainstreamed because outside of peopleand America, people might not be so sure who Thomas Jefferson is yet yeathat that I good point that sommes honors, like biogics or superheermovies, now wisn at a certain time, are considered generally mainstream, butnot obviously not all things in the GENRA are that menthin I mean to haveAti experientaing with theronal and...

...giving you something that is very muchoutside e man change. I get paallel but different from zen considerations. Theissue issue of what is mentoring, so if we think about the idea of ofmainstream and how it doesn't always me, but films, I'd like to point out oshine. An example of this in the work of Christopher Nolen ovously startedout was independent films following and Memento Forpc, a household nameAntackling, the dark, naturalogy a Becomein, a very successful directorwho was great critical and commercial success. I seems to combine a grandsense of story telling, with intelligent concepts, to deliverfascinating feature. Films with mainstream appeal, Thul also showcasean incredible awareness of the mediums artistic qualities. I would takeinterstellit and inception as two perfect examples of this, and you can'timagine many other directors working today being allowed souck freedom whencreating films requiring an enormous financial backing to bring theirinventive vision to life. So I'm curious to what examples you mak theyhave of mainstream films that you know blown you away. That are beenparticularly impressive. I was mentioned before. I'm not sure if theterm that Mans trem really exist where there really is such thing asmainstream cinema wbut I can talk about, though, is that there are some filmsthat obviously have much bigger budgets than others and with something likeindestellerache did really love that, and obviously, if Christophan Alladidn't, have such big success with the Bat Manfilms, he probably wouldn't havehad the abuget his disposal be able to make something as breath taking asintosteller is. Oh, I guess from that one Ofyou, that's quite an achievementand in terms of mainstream cinema, what Manstrim is. I just think it reallyexists. Much in our mind, it's various from country on the country and itchanges a lot with awards, Al things that bring films into consideration. SoI coun talk about specific FESPEC only about mainstream as a concept Ir's,something that I find really hard to still get my head around. I guess, ifyou want another example of a manstruntion in Y love, one would beafiction. I guess it is avication that it is in a sense, an independent Im. Ithink in the way it would do im pretty sor end. It was TAT can which is notexactly the temporal of the mainstream, but it ended up being very much amantal movie and something that everyone knows and and Yoanoe. Myfavorite movie in the way, which plays also with this Manti tream talks thatit takes all these elements of seventy winds in Particulara M so, but alsofrom more autorisjustlike Gegada an I do, perfliction, really what I loveabout. It is the way which it is playful like that, which is somethingthat I, the best of mentioned in Emat, can be it's an interesting part abouthow fiction whether it is really a mainstream film, if was Maine asindependent film, and if it's rurning after one the upharm door, that it gotall this extra recognition and then became an award success and everythingI feel it's the same way with one of other films like parasite, you Kno, ifit hadn't, won the palm door, oe Haningol on the wards trilha. Will webe talking about as mainstream cinema film? Of course, not everything thatwins they are palm doracan necessarily goes on to be a mainstream film. I'dthinking of things like winter sleep. That's still very on the side that ifyou tald somebody about that fielmints reggar person street, they wouldn'thave heard of it. Ut Hat other films, obviously like taxi Driv, the harm doorall over time, milestyl offers a small mad. More independent film, Hes comeonshave a much bigger reputation since then has actually become an ingrainpart of cinemaculture. The same way that whole fictiones pok fiction is agreat example. It tapped into something buck te cult around the time that justproved to make it so successful and that's an interesting thing to considerwith emainstream cinemas. Some films get to be that way because of theDemarkein side of it. The big push by studios to to make them amainstreamsuccess. But there are some films that, just through the the quality of thefilm Makand, the the word and mouth eventually make it into the demaintream,which is an interesting point. I tombring back to Christo Te Nolan and afilm like Memento, it's purely through word of mouth, that better became sucha big success, start off as a very small or more budget type of filmandfor everybody talking about in different structure and how was sodifferent, and I was so interesting. It actually t became part of themainstream, otherwise much like following Chrisnoanconfrom Nin, Ninetyeight, which otherwise might seem a little bit out of the usual as a hugehorror fan and that so qlote that I seem to fit into most episodes. Butgiven the chance, I can't help bit speak about horror. I'm obviouslyinterested in when horror transcends...

...into the mainstream and it seems to bedoing this tlk a lot of success. requites a bit of intelligenthorrocomin through a recent film that was in the mainstreum that I reallyenjoyed was the invisible man, though this was brilliant. reimagining of theoriginal sauce novel so aspeom in this one. An a toxic masculinity and abusiverelationship, Sir introduced to atchiwals Classic Story Aboutinvisibility and thisopdates. The Science Fiction Frella for contemporaryaudiences in Hevicious, reimagining of the sawrs material gone of the toxinsand chemicals used by the villain to become undetectable by the Aron wildsisnovel and in place of the Ese Technologically Advanced Sut thatbestows its wear with invisibility and after this should q ompten scenes wherethe Camra puns around empty rooms that surprise andly never become easy tostomach, as the constant threat of an unseen presence is exploited to itmaximum potential, and I think this is a great example of Ha mainstream film.That appeals to mas audiences, but there's also a lot of intelligence inthe writing and the presentation of the film that allows people with perhaps afine appreciation of the artistic side of a cinema to get an enjoyment out ofthe film as well yeah. I definitely agree I think Invisibil man is is agreat example of that, and also it goes into. The idea of entertainments mihtis very entertaining Sim way it to Tackl to issues- and I guess that'smaybe the best o mention I can do is be extremely entertaining. Why I stillhaving underlying issues that is interested, haven't actually seen the invisible man.It's one that I was very curious about. The invisible man was a film that I wasinterested in it which I wanted to se, but then corona virus her ten, thecinemas Cloi so never got around to it. dereally like the James Wealtham RM,one thousand nine hundred and thirty three and I'm curous to see how it'supdated for modern times, fist in question. Only Wen all the directorbehind it made a really cool film called Upgrad a couple of years ago,and the questionwill be well would upgrade now be considered. A mainstreamfilm Itas been like Archie when it came out over. He has a consideredmainstream now, because people are looking at more of his films aftersuccess, Ov, tly, invisible man, I would ten Tosa Neondar just because Idon't think it's that well known yet, but maybe I mean that's avatable pointI mean I guess it's also another concect we haven't talked aboutexploitation or Ho, or you know, thi kind of Flim. That is in some waysmainstram, because they are made for digogiums Litein theaters, but in alotor sense, because they are not lery respected, as opposed to evenbrobusters, which are expected ate by the industry. I get up another kind ofgray area. I I would put a great outside Dimensiin, but it's delatblepint. I, this might ment withoutgread as e Ting B'cause. It is an Australlinfilm or Las partially financed in Australia, so itwas deafinitely, a verymainstrim fim over here, was actually shiling in cinemas or cross. Perth, soI could like to se I without an drive, Al Wayn House cinema, but it'ssomething where I'e talk to people overseas and the people have seen Eroverseas and said all that to go to an old house cinema to sat he quinnncy atthe regular cinemas o. It just shows a guess that cultural barrier and what'smainstream over here might not be quite so mainstream across the world. That'san interesting point, soul in it. It bridges back to the notion ofmainstream cinema beindifferent for different countries, depending on whatis popular over there at any given time, and I wouldn't class orgrade as hemainstream a film personally, but I think that you aise an interestingpoint about whether, when a director reaches a certain level of success,their past films would then potentially have the opportunity to be consideredmainstream by virtue. If the director almost becoming a household name, Ithink that's an interesting are whether a film could be consideredretrospectively mainstream or whether it should only be considered amainstream if it is popular and successful. At the time of its release,you kn it's a very good point and he cund go back to people like stepenSpilbirg, the films like jewel, which was a TV movie and t e Shugalan Expresswith Goldenhorn, which is a fantastic Torma, and I don't think any of thoseare really big films, but since he cessov jaws and close encounters andall the films in the eighties pillbeg such a hosehold name, that I thinkthose two films, Jiell and Shug Ann Express actually quite well known thesedays and to take the oppetit point, I think you know abunch or side of moviesaren't example, but also like some of...

...the big sixte ethics like evencopassoparace pic well known. I guess, because it was so expensive andpuffered. It was a bi deal at the time because it was ven famous that I thinkmost people don't neciarily know Bot. I now in in the other way around right,tuff that well Menstrem Omponton, isn't Treaig. U That's a very good pointabout Cla Pattra and one of the big films of nineteen sixty three and yougo to nineand sixty three oscaz and the film Tom Jones. One Best Picture mention Tom Jones these days, pourethink oh the singer. Nobody actually knows that British film that won theBest Picturosqa. You know the big films o one thousand nine hundred andsixtythree stuff like the great escape or a t e half, if you're into Cenema,you might know that Buffaleni film is like Tom Jones might have been big backthen, but they're not actually big these days. So as a counterpoint to theMAINSTREIAMG films, we lie and appreciate, thought it would beinteresting to perhaps put forward some examples of the mainstream films thathaven't made such a positive inimpression on us. I've got quite arecent example and the harly Quin superevor film birds of prey and inthis, a dazzling, cllidascope of callers and and Comic Bot violenceawaits anyone who enters her world, basically quinerates her own Muid tailinvolved in it, a stollen diamond andarprize rancomas. She smashes awaythrough Gofam city and Iklly, destroying everything in per path andoften making it through one scave. Thanks to sheer look apart from onceslick fight, seen in a circus that bears with phronetic energy. Thesesequences are mostly forgetable offering light entertainment, butbringing nothing new to the oversaturated wirld of if Comic BookAdactations. If you ar someone who's after popcorn, father or minusentertainment, you could probably do far worse, but when nother villain ofGophan cities recently grate the big screem of such an Uncagattale impactits,it's hard not to Vebe, to pray as as a mist opportunity, and it strages methat it's a film that people who don't visit the cinema, the often willperhaps enjoy more than others, because you know it's loud, its Brihtis EFAC,its it's noisy and it's easy to get lost in it. When you really take a lookat the quality of the film at OAS being produced, there's a lot of areas inwhich is lacking. The MA example of a Mantin fumer- I don't like, is actuallya specific French example. You maynot even know it. I guess TBAT. It is veryfamous in franc, an aaxi which is ofem by not Maly Dion. The director isactuall Zages, but it was written, maybe bis one produced, and it was avery influential thim. I think ipicted, because it's very representative to meof a certain away of the whole business thing I because that's definite thepart of Ren cinema that is trying to emulate Hollywood and t o, becausethere is a lot of mention in Amat just comedies, but there's not a lot ofaction and Hollywood, tat, film and so Theonis. Trying to do that- and I thinktaxi is a very good example of the ways in which she takes everything. That'swrong wit. Howo would lok us to without much of the good, because there's a lotof in the way the women characters are written, nor are they wite nat all wely.A MALUUA and that Shim and shes playing nothing Um, you had a main character,who's supposed to be tarismatic, but I mean I gue t something there, but theway that actor is written is extremely Clat and even the action on there aresome other business ims like to transportor that do littln better withthat. That sacce is supposed to be to have exciting, chasn and they're veryflat very and they don't really work. I think it's ina sense, an ambitious terminy. I guess you could respect it for that, but itis so backward looking and both it yous on women and also Um fowing people toepeople from Asia and Tuena, and I guess I guess I picked it because it's in away of disappointment, it's the Y. I would like frends and other countriesto be able to make that kind of movie, because why not? After all, I mean it'sinteresting, that China is. I tem, for example, but it's n, it's intesting tohave a thing that in must say, because often aris is big thing for action ininfance, but yeah. It's it's very disappointing to me and it's O fem thatrely represents the Yete missogin, especially that is very present in thea line of films and that Atinof hate that it is th have become arepresentative attist in Europe and I think Cosewifar Om Tan of action.French GNMA, although I haven't seen taxi a your description of it, justreminds me of of countness of e commercial films that seem to be madefirst and foremost with the idea of making money so Yo Gad. All these big,franchises, onnecessary sea calls and...

...spin off t chaned out solely with thepurposive of making money and where thes talent of the the filmmakers orOrativsisn't, perhaps pointto to best use. I see that there been number ofsecalls a taxi nd. It kindof reminds me of e same thing: that's happened withthe cast and curious equals, although they are to very in degrees F ofquality, but it does at times feel like films from Hollywood and the bigstudios hollow a set tem Plat and they rarely take risks and they don't liketo innovate or try different things, because when they do step outside ofthe the Comfort Zon, there is a chance that the films that are made could sepotentially end up losing the Monian. I think that's Tesad state of theindustry put Im. It is Somin that Eist yeah and I guess I should point outthat taxi don't have fource equals soyeah. This is not a unique problem toHollywood thought. It was interesting. A lot of people are doing examples orsequels and remakes and franchises. I'm talking about a mainstream film thatdidn't really do much. For me. I might go with the reent Halloween from twothousand and eighteen. It doesn't actually add anything extra to thestory. It was really Hih time. It's going to be this big confrontationbetween the Larestroi character, Michael Myas, very little. The filmisactually delicated to it much of it's a very standad psycho killer type of film,which I guess is good for drawing in crowns ARD getting in the money. IHAVE.Actually look at the Halloween Franchise in general. Most of thesequels aren't very good, at least not compared to Ntmn Almstrea, which hasactually got some decent sequels in there, a really good, Halloween, sea ordecent for the fratris o. This was Halloween resurrection which actuallytried to do something different with the concept of bit of white virtualreality going into the house, which is actually a little bit different,whereas the more recent Halloween was just another slush of film and Tisupposes, whe, Haf, hois being so cheap to make. Usually that's why we see alot of remakes and and sea qualls, because chears don't have to invest alog of money for a big ritailion, because a lot of mainstream audienceswilll go and see a horror, regardless of it its quality. They send to be agood film for fierce dates, and things like that and groups of friends whojust want to laugh. So I think horror always tends to do quite while in theman, regardless of the quality yeah. I get that with horror films that theyare very good for the mainstream. I guess a lot of people going into thembecause they want to be scared or shocked or frightened or Sein somethingunexpected and with a lot of the more recent ones they sort of play on peoplehaving not seen the order films for going something like noani, stretc, ro,ND, nine hundred and eighty four on. I don't want to see that I'm goingto saythis new version with Ronie Marri. Instead, they wer sliking the sameideas, Tho trying to outdate them for different generations and there's lotsof Heav socking which goes along, and there are some good horror films outthere. But a lot of it's just playing to you know what Peo want a scarygimage here and there I'd jump here and there I b a moment here and there. Butit's actually not the sort of intellectual horror, films that we sawlike really sho. I guess in the nineteen eighties an people like DavidCronemburg and Westcraver wereeally flourishing and bring a whole lot ofnew ideas to the screen, so something that both of your examples made methink of that Aven't seen them. But what I've heard is that the newhaloween we make Hav the whole thing about it, notcast and that the tefay iswould be faminist movie and without notiges is a whole discussion and Ithink those kind of nelements of Ban Swim FIMS that don't work, that theytry to be of the moments, but it seemes artificial and fage and bationistic asopposed to what we talked about earlier with Atflecxion, in that it is of themoment just because it is maybe maybe tried to be of the moments whateverwhatever the is may be. It succeeded. So I think that adothe type ofmentioning terms but sail is ye. They try to be of the moment, but it comesoff an afficial yeah. The new Halloween film is deafly, not a profeminous filmstuff, where Loristro Foty of Michael Mi is contained to a very small sectionof the film, and if you want to see a beroversion of Halloween I'LD actuallygo to the ROB Zombi film which- and I got baste a lot when it came out, butit's actually a really good feeln that actually explores Michael's back storyand presents him as more of a character rather than just a monster. Actuallyafter me, I preferit the John carpeter original, although of course nothingcan replace John Carbot Ar's original music schore, that's a complete classic.I must say that you are comments about to be to pray and Bot the feministstunts and how artificial at fields were spot on the money, which is quiteimpressive. Considering you haven't...

...seen it yet. Well, that's what liteningto Potcastdo for you. I Know Tan Shoulati haven't hen, it's maybe notthe most useful of information. Otha good example wouldbe the fourth mad Maxi Film Fury Rod that was really talked about as beingreally proferminist has got this new feminist Ange in there its going to beso great better than the first two film and I sat down and watched it and firstthreemad back soms didn't really do much. For me, I did sort of prefer thefourth film out of the four films, but not by a huge amount. I wouldn't reallysay having that a Sharles, thron character and thee really pushed itmuch in the feminist way that people were talking about when theywere ravingabout it online. I would agree on on that hum. Inparticular, I do I do really like Suryroad, and I mean whether or notexteminat certainly noth for me to say, but I do think there is more than justhaving the Sosa carector. You know pay got playd by Charle Ston. I think it'snot just that. Dont have ta whole way that the world is set up right. Thewhole structure of the motem Ro thing with the women who's, exploiting milkand stuff. I mean, I think there is a lot more there. That is substantial andI do and Adohat I to that's how I'm conterned LEKING DUSHAT's. I look, as I said before. I probably liked erode than most of themadmaxed films. Other really did much for me, and I guess it wasn't maybefeminist in the way that I was led to belie to believe Thas probably had moreof a profamiiis drive than the original films Diad from Nineteen, Seventy nineand the two ron he ninetnden and eighties. I Reale Lo Fuy road. I think it's abrilliant cirl and it's great example of in the remainstream film that it canbe enjoyed just face value for what it is or, as you mention, thefeministstants you things in th in the subtex can be appreciated as well. So it workson both levels, and I think that films that offer that you know the kind of onthe surface the emersion fror audienc at he just want to escape, and thenthese subtects for people who want to anulyze their films and get a bit moreout o it films that can combine those two element too, particularly wileand.That kind of link was into our next topic, where weere going to talk about challenging or unique films that havebroken into the mainstream. So for me, I think that horror again is greaterdoing this, so spoke aealier about the invisible man, but there were many of ayoung talent to type aut to Jordan, peel who went on get out andosaparticularly well on the main, Streem and Ariaste, with hereditary andmidsrumer, maybe made less of an impact as their previous films put a d. Theystill found a way to TACP into modern audience's fears and all these fo, thehorrifying films that contain thork of Ocen subtects, which acts at a apowerful foundation to the original offerings of the storyland. So thesefilms again can be taken at face value for the fron in Horo Films. They are,but they also provide intelligent audiences with the chance to DALP favorinto their deeper social and political messages that the director striving for.I all I might just mention on that. Hereditary and midsummer were notmainstrean films in Australia, otshore about Redri ause. I saw thet on tbd,but it wasn't showing in a lot of cinemas and when I went to see midsummer, I think there are only two Cenemis n hall in my city that areactually playing it so and quite qaros mainstream. But I guess over in the: UK there might be a mainstream and here they're sort of more left off field, soto speak, if maybe not quite osish in terms of Jordan, hi get out was anexcellent film and I really enjoyed that. That was really thought provokingand really funny allser. At times US was interesting, but I thought, as itwent along, I thought it fell apart because there er a lot of things withits mythology which were properly explained or left a lot more questionsthan aanswers at the end, O Irat actually felt very generic to me, eventhough what pil was trying to do, and I would see us trying to do something alittle bit different with in mythology. I just thought it came out a little bitjumbled for me and I just feells just like most of the horror films by theend. Unfortunately, I did love ged Ouo Thoug. That was really innovative. Iguess little hoadjacent to me the most ovious example of a fim that really wassuccessful, despite nothing being very strange and weird, and not being masonfom. This two thousand and one iget ther's, only one section of Hasing onethat you could qualify as mainseam, which is the third section which is bitof a Swiller. But even then it's a pretty slow one and somehow itwas apretty big box offi hit with people...

...going to midnight, screening and it'tin, Tart e, whole movement, and I think, that's kind of a fascinatingexample. Ofte thing that is, it wasn't supposed to be menum in a sense, inedof being and yeah the way in which Menshin can be implicable, as Imentioned earlier on. I think the awards have a lot to do with how atfilms a bit challenging break into the maistream or already mentioned theartist which, before one the best director Athan, wasn't really picked up.It wasn't made for the mainstream market and something like parasite,which again was definitely not made for mainstream crowds, but has become mucha household name now, even some other things recently, like moonlight, wasn'tmuch of a mainstream film. That's when there as really showing a couple ofcinemas and actually see it myself in cinemas. But when I saw moon light onBluray, I was actually really blown away by it. Oh in terms of challengingyeah, it's interesting. You could even go to things like parence Mallick. Areyou going to say Somtin like the tree of life, this mainstream? I don't knowif I actually would, because that's an anti Narrato, F Togh I'v got a bestpicture. Inbestdirecte nomination ut. I think a lot of the award SA, especiallywhen films win very big awards. I think they sort of propell them up a littlebit further and give them a bit more recognition and become a bit more of afeemossomebody Gos. Oh, have you seen that film and t e go o o I have't andthen actually maybe go out and finally said. Another good example, I think, is thefavorite, which was only showing nothing in a couple of summers when itfirst came out here. However, after leaving o Comon on the Osca for peoplegoing Er have you seen is con one of the Best Actress Oscar and that'sactually a very charlenging film. It's very different, the fish iphotography.There is very unusual and it's a superb film Bi's one that wasn't quite in themainstream. I don't think andonly had that Academy Awards success. The favortis a great example and again it it kind of reiterates the importance of theawards, because they raise attention to films that might not necessarily havemust appeal when they have the right promotion behind the orgatheight wordof mouth. They reach wider audiences and inevitably make an impact and itsgreatersea films such as a favorite or or moolight or againt, two thousand andone that mathe mentioned distracting such a cord of audiences and showcasing.You know the best F of what cmainstream can be. I agree about the favorite. Ithink yet that the again two different ashpects of Manstrum here is thatsometimes we atan can wake into mainstrams. I A box office. Do that'snot the most usual thing, and sometimes I can break into te in same yea wordand, as you mention so that's definitely. The most common way andThehavit is, is an excellent example that I guess I don't know exactly howfamous it is among nontetiles, but it's more famous than it would have been hadit not on the Otto when we think about the merits of mainstream se. One of theaspects that I toched upon briefly earlier was discussing ChristopherNollan's films and the large buckets that hes afforded to create these filmsand Su a grand scale and that's an important aspective of mainstreamcinema 'ecause. You get films like gravity which push the boundaries of thtechnology that is available and create these incredible siifive spectacles ina way that will appeal to mainstrim audiences because t the hart is such aHuman Story D. for me, that's one of the most important things that themainshiing films have to offer: The fact that they can push the boundies oftechnology because they have the support of the r the studios to createsome fate audiences haven't yet seen befre. I guess one thing that Osocum'smind is we haven't discussed much the the marvelten and they're very much inthe way do theyare made. They are certainly very inconventional, but thefact that a fam like Angane, which is essentially a season's nalling of thebig TV, show composed of a bench of movie. Could you know break all thesewecords in the BPOFIC and even though it unadjusted still it? It was ha hugeperformance for them that doesn't make sense if you haven't seen like at leastfive or six Soems. Before that's kind of change, I mean even do the tame initself is in some way very conventional. The structure of the NTU is a verystrange thing that has managed to see on what is popular now, especially withthe wiseof Tishos, and make that Mainstrin just going back to gravity. Ithought those interestings at home, but up because obviously on our phoneEquoraan got quite a big budget to make it, and I had some very strikingofficials in there they'll still...

...mainstream film and I think taking itas a side by bath. Looking at it, I found it a bit disappointing as anarrative, because it wasn't really about the vastness and the mysteries ofspace and that sort of one looking for the SCIPI film. That gravity wasbasically e Thril Ridelsbury this Rolwas all about bouncing from onething to her next trying to survive in space tot likt cast away in space. Ithink thit's impression I had at the end of it. So I'm not surprised that ithit well with the oneral public, with the mainstream market. Gess Waif, I'mmore impressive as something like indistella cause, what it's taking youon without right, its something completely different and completely onconventional, which we haven't actually seen before. But I agree with EU wholeidea, which Tom said about big budgets in one of the main fact doesn't makemainstream films worthwhile. If a good director gets to work with a budget,it's one of my favorite directors years, a guy called Philip Ridley and he madea really cool fillm cor, the reflecting Ba Kinone, thosandnine hundred andninety bat. He refuses to make a film less it's actually about sufficientfinding for o any made two films sense them. One of thems called heartless,which came out around ten years ago with Jim Sturgirson Andt, a xletthought provoking challenging film where nothing's Ot, exactly as it seems,Iles HIV actall ot the budget able to be AP to make it. Then it's really hardto WAP that vision forward. That's a great example: I've seen both thereflecting skin and heartlss and they are great films but, as you said,theire unconventional ideas, and perhaps they are stories that obviouslyworth telling, but ones that the people who finance films aren't willing totake a risk on because thee not really ankal ideas, things that will sellthose artistic merit to them in their grat film, they're, never going toappeal to the masses. Sadly, es Mese go to thormakelike Tom, for who made asingle man made notturnal animals and sunk a whole lot of his own money intoit, but unless you're independently wealthy, like that, you can't reallyafford to make films like that. Just 'cause, you feel like making a film onenotion of mainstream cinema that we haven't touched upon. Yet is the worldof animation mostly mentioned Marvel Bat? When you consider studios likepicar as well and toy story, they are mainstream films that have captured amoment with children in th the nineties and then they've managed to build onthat. Success and great sea calls that are almost as cord as the original, andI always think, that' an impressive feat that they can build on the rnostalgia for the original, bring something new to the Tairabl and makeit appeal to multiple generation. EAH, we've, Ogot, animation, a think culture.We have to mention ine and the way in which it is a company that has managedto remain at the center of the mainstream for almost a century. Now,with some shallow fellow deods and some better Ferios. That is ga an impressivefeet in a sense, an and agre what Pixur has done, vesonty those wo impressivein Matten and staying in the main stream, and I think they have used tothe advantage Nostangia, which is, of course aver popular, an very strongforce. Nowadays we see it with. You know the values we make of thin, thatwether successful twenty years ago, the graffic worlds and stuff AKD. That andte mentioned haloween earlier, and I get a Ormelementol Mainfin that peoplecriticize a lot if how unoriginal it can be either because it is alladaptations of stuff awas ofee before or just Weneg equels, I guet the pot Eran anontol mantion cinema is that IC is building on Itshelf, really like what Matthew said aboutthere about mainstreagth as Cindema building on itself. I would actuallythoroughly agree with that. A lot of films coming out these days are sort oflike made to expect a sequel, the maid, in a way that a Sekwal can come outquite easily. If the film was a success which I think is what's happened, a lotwith the animated films and if you just run through the box office list, theone from box office merger, which are official lesson, I Chek movies, isactually cauntless secrels there to animated films and to a lot of filmsthat wornt really go in the first place, but they made in a lot of money. At thebox office D, therefore, a Secol came about. Thos is Teflappim from theanimation conversation abut an interesting one. Would Bei poor BLAMOLL COP, which is a really stupid, Kevin James Film people, went and sawit because those Kevin James made a whole lot of money and made enoughmoney that they managed to fine outs, a sequel. Nobody really like the original,and even less people like to sequel everything about mainstream Cintemadoes seem to be about building on itself being on a familiarity, likeMatthew, said, with drastic weld and the drestic park saquals, and also thatNostalgiraso, I guess whe row up with...

...the Orengional Drussic part and Heisdefinitely quit bazing. What Jisney 's managed to do with things like Mary,poppins and AF, the original nine, a sixty four on've got the Rob Martialversion from two thousand and eighteen to to get back to animation a bich. Aninteresting phenomena is h. The way in which animation, because of treedanimation, has kind of democratize itself in a sense Welf demopotize, butthere are most strudios making animated terms than they were before the ninetysentrally Pixa is one though its part of Disney, but you als have thedreamworks and Suni and whatever, and I think you really see kind of astratification oof those movies in that the picure movies te Popular Te theyrespected the Disney movie, is kind of the same. I mean difference, but thesedays they are relatively wel like even by the critics, and then you have ostufk like a millions, and maybe I do dream works movies. Don't like Maagascastuff like that, that is expusicly for children and nothing more. I guess Iguess. Maybe it ha doing o topic t as well. Te Canatic of the mainthine isthat when you are targeting very specific, not othecopulation, but it ishuge because children of Cosoi man, people have children, I mean that's abig part of it and yeah. I get the way also in which Di is wintent to get TRAC.We those Li action movies, which are arvalive action like Delan King, isEinterestingcat like Isit Legation, oided, actually animation, justcomputer annation with a lie: thatsheremakes Disne, essentiallysitting on a gold mine because everything's there ready for them to go.They've just got Ta Remakeit, and these films are famous adults and childrenlove them. So the children want to go and see the new versions, because it'sa reimagining e, it Av a classic. They once love and it's just a bankable hitfor Disney to CHN ED ou. I've not seen many myself. So I can't comment on thequality, but it seems sad when the mainstream is becominginundated withremates of films and these big studes upon Pemoni into them, because you knowthere's so many stories out there to be told, and it would be great if we couldhave more original hits. ATUALL HAV in them- and I think oneinteresting aspect of those livaction winaxs is that generally the morepopular the original team was like the linging, the less interesting th wemake it because they tend to hold. I guess they. Don't it there to changeanything? They just go like we take the holoss even in shops, and we do just dothat. o You wear with something like to do jungle book, which is a popular hamdthat t's old and maybe e Onetangia. They went with a different story. Idon't think it works, particually Wel fortaction, but I I it's own thing: AAsopposed to something like nse or lanking, Shan be almost sappershots,welate Ou, the animation original. Just in that action coin, Och t interesting,ecause Disney, does have that hope period Twai. I guess the aristocratsand a little Mermad where they had a lot of films that didn't really takeoff, and yet they avonstarted those for. I actary makes one Ofe live action ofin company. We don't have a live of action. Basle. The great mousedetective t that we SOTHING, which they quilt bank on, but then again, if therewasoe nostalgia for that IHS Arn as well known on as well liked, andperhaps there's less reason for them than want to turn those into liveaction films, but ID also Sta. we probably need to it. Sometime Yo havepodcast about remakes cause. It does come up quite often on filmboardspeople, disgusting or Ocan beamaking. This fill nowe going to be remakingthis classic year, remakes actually have existed from the very first day,like even films like the wizard of Oz, was remake of a Siro Iom, N ThousandNine hundred and twenty five would be interesting Covic to discuss at somepoint: Yeah Definitey Wemake, not a new phenomenon and th lack of originaltinon Hollywood Olson of Neu, I mean, I think, in the thirties, there were abunch of literary and play apeptations that were completely dominating and everything is new and nothing e. Sowe've looked into a wide range of Jeanesan and filmmaking styles. Whendiscussing the mainstream, I'd be curious to find out what my os had tothink on the on the MAINSTREAMARS concluding point. I guess to me. What Iwould say is that mention Nana to me is very interesting, because the way inwhich I watch the main motivation forme is to see it as a coutufal object. Youknow what does it say about the time and place it was made in and in thecase of manton movie? What did it say about that that it is mainstream? Imean outhost movies, also interesting in that way, because they can show moreobscure parts of society. OCIDE EEMAN that I hink mantinfims have thatquality, that they really tell you what the values and the idea that are goingon at a time in a place. So I think we...

...talked about thereas apray an you canlook at a vench of Hollywood fhims of this Ar Right now in twenty years, andyou can say: Oh yes. Obviously, feminism was a big subject. You knowwhether or not it was done well in such and such movie. No A questionbuts, it'sjust interesting to look at, and I think generally. That is what and mostinteresting Imegionsin I. What does it say about us that this is Mainstrinseclod point that Matthew mantions about minstream cinema, eabout valuesin socilety and things that are commonly held up in terms of my viewand mainstream Cinema Im, not particularly fascinated with aningeneral, but then it's a fluctuating term. I thinki there's always going tobe flashaning, so whil is manstream. What is a mainstream? Will Change overtime? One thing which I think was mentioned: The podcast, which is a verygood point, es budgets and being allowed to make different sort of filmsif something's popl enough to be deam mainstream, as well as the whole ideawith us, saquols and bilding on themselves, and some cecles out. Thereare really good a lot of them. Try and copy the original or try to outdo theoriginal, rather thand actually present something new. Some O them areworthwhile. Some of them may be less worthwhile. I don't avoid mainstreamcinema, it's not something where I'm looking Wel, the first platinum or wa.I want to get on o ID check movies. Is The box office list so, like the lastplatinum, a war that I want to get like Sol? I don't avoid mainstream cinema,but it's never usually a priority forme. I think it's clear that mainstreamcinema has a lot of merits, not just for being a Gayway for most film fundsinto the world of cinema and kindling that initial passion bught for theability to create cinema on a grand scale that perhaps wouldn't be possiblewithbout. The backing of major studios, there is a lot of forgetable fare thatis, is churned out by these studios, but every once in a while, they arecapable are producing cinematic gems that resonate with the masses, as wellas those who were morching to the artistic attributes of the films thatthey seek out. So we hope you have enjoyed listening and would love it. Ifyou would join us for next weeks episode where we would be exploring thefascinating world of modern SCIENC cinema and how today's filmmakers usenew techniques and styles to breathe fresh life into the medium's comblorigin, you have been listening to talking.Inmachit e Fisho hotcat of ICMFOR dtcom Hirone is Chris. This onted to drop infor a tiny Camo Gotto, be in Alften, and let everybody know that if you joinus again next week, the fills O mistering will be sound movie articersMaqis Uha, the cal of catrol brand upon the brain doctor, plunt Langaa, theartist and CACIVIS turns again next time and lets rot theinpence again, you have been listening to talkinginbechit the Fisho hot cat IPM FOR DCO.

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