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Talking Images

Episode 16 · 1 year ago

Classic Westerns vs Spaghetti Westerns

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Warning: In this episode Chris will compare Shane to Funny Games ...

Hi all, 

In this episode Chris, Adam and Tom pull out their guns and join one of the Internets (and pre-Internets) longest standing shoot-outs - the battle between classic westerns and spaghetti westerns.

You may also end up reaching for your guns and aiming them at us actually ...

Why?

Because we have picked two films to compare and contrast and neither are by John Ford or Sergio Leone.

We will center today's episode on the most common western tropes of all: the stranger!

Our focus will be on Shane and The Great Silence, two films that would seem made for a perfect double feature. 

We will compare these two films, not just to each other, but to the rest of classic of spaghetti westerns - and explore their relationships, their differences and similarities.

Worried about spoilers? Don't worry, each film has their own spoiler section you can easily skip. (There will also be a spoiler for Django in the Spoiler section for The Great Silence).

Intro: 00:00
Spaghetti Westerns vs. Classic Westerns: 01:53
Shane: 10:45
The Great Silence: 37:00
Outro: 1:07:36

You are listening to talking eviction.The official PAS got some ICM for dtcom all right wellcome back thereywhilethis to show tha the Internet has been waiting for classic Westerns weresospecganimasters. Let's settle this wont Ofr. All we may just end upreaching for a dunstair to look out. If you hear a shop, remember, you'relistening to a popgast bullet cannot hurt you, though perhaps Werd Tan. WeWill Sener this episode. Onmon o the most common vestentrobes of all thestranger. We have selected two of the biggest and mold respected vesten orastranger rides in the town and takes up a cough, the classic Westeris chain.The legendary and manuwid claim subversive, dor, stepen, fisten Om onethousand ine hunded, and fifty three and a Speghetti Mestin is, of course,the Great Islands, Threto Corpotede, equally legendary and unusually noIvestin set in Neuta, so ar screaming yet have shoft been fired. We aretalking about classic words Pagette ever not even doing John Fordbortserchinly. Only tough. If you do want that, l only hit, we will actually do adolatralty, PatCatsodon't ferory. W will get to it eventually and even in this episode,the ONL for the most likely be mentioned as well. That's right willnot just compare these two fields to each other, but to the rest ofclassianst, Pygeti Mesters as well and explore their relationships, theirdifferences and their similarities. But let's get this battle going or heavenforbid a Calan Nirous sustession yeah toup its not that so, let's get startedwith one of the quick and easy questions that will just get eeryone'sblooboiling right away, I'll turn to my cohost adamand hom andask them the question that spark shoot out all across the REB pegativeterds or clastic restents. Whatsay you and we can Stok withoutem. This is Adam from New York City on the ICMform, I'm known as Blanco Chris. This is a really tough one. Iwant to take an easy way out and say I kind of fall in the middle. If you madea list of all the Westerns, I love, I think, there'LD be four more classicWesterns Than Spaghetti Westerns. But if you look at just the top Westerns, Ilove and I went back and I looked at my list from two thousand and sixteen forthe ICEM forms. Favorite Westerns bow right at the top. There would be plentyof Spaghetti Westerns in the top town, my proman Spaghetti Westerns. I thinkonce you get past, maybe the best twenty movies, the quality falls offvery sharply. I'm going to hedge my bats and stay in the mid all say I',probably Pan Towards Classic Westerns but ihave great love for the SpaghettiWesterns as well. I is Tom from England. This is a much easier question for me.I certainly appreciate the traditional Westerns and there's many of them thatI enjoyed, but I absolutely love Spaghetti Westerns there', somethingabout the violence, the music, the tragedy surrounding most of their cens,as well, really connect with me. So I've got a say: Spaghetti Restons about you Chris. What do you think welloftly? If you'd asked me this question, maybe Thar's like five ten years ago,with a Jumpo toget them a terns right away, because the Dollas Tri Lo shapmultupone time in the west of the great silence, large moticircle opirtas orthe films as well, not to mention Tergas Limas fens. They do somethingthat is so interesting and so diverds with amus the atmosphere like tomentiontheir violence, the cooler les the say that art least at the time. I thoughtthey were cooler. There were more aw inspiring experiences in a way, but astime Os on, I I've started to come to the same realization that you did inthat. There really aren't that many great pagettive Westerns, there's threesordials like it US mentioned, Leonly, Ubuchi and Salima and beyond that youknow, gets slim pickings, very, very fast. In fact, I started to look up allof the list. overe the greatest pegetimastents of all time. Usually,the top Tan would be filled SROM, just those directors like sometimes with oneadditional Tistrollin, but that's it so hus think that overall, there's just soFu teresters that really stand out is to really say that can win somehow,especially when you know compared to all of the gold nage and then Lik. If you look at the classicrestation Ow from Reobrabo to he tressure of the SAR mother that there'sso much power there as well as Ol, many of them are quotcool like even more theMI or lower middler aparted firms, Lyo...

...from other they told, for instance, youhave so much cool tes in the colors, an the shots, and then you have that mestand rars as well. Do somepeopgle pole to differentBritoshovis. I ajest, I have to say hand to classic Westard Alove what yousay about these being coolar Chris you're completely right, there'ssomething about the experience that just takes over, although they havepotentially less mean and less message behind than than a lot of the classicWesterns. It's an experience that is kind of on rerival. When you considerthe Western Goner, I think that's it's necessary to think a little bit abouthow the Spaghetti Western came to be, and I'm not an expert in spaghettis atall. But from what I know, I believe that basically merged a sort of a cheapcopycat genre than the Italian studios said to do. They knew the popularity ofAmerican Westerns they decide to do their own and because so many of themwere made so very cheaply that very much oncs the aesthetic of SpaghettiWesterns. I think in many cases it lent to some really slip shot movies, butthere were certain directors, specifically some of the ones youmentioned Chris. That really were able to take the freedom of the Italianstudio system, or at least the sense of the atime studiosystem was differentfrom Hollywood and they were able to do something really new, with Westerns andTheye, led to some of that power and beauty and coolness that you guys havementioned. I think you're complete your right rid em, especially if you look atsome of the Mouers pagetimas an Acanda go unnoticed like there's a low of roomto get greated. There are some almost real films in there that encompletelyShuck you even the films from Sergo Lima, has thes almost existentialelement them as well, especially if hi face to face so it it's thist realinteresting. Whatso of these directors could eget away with inside what wastechnically ment to be this polb quit buck movies. One other thing that wevementions of Spaghetti Westens is that they came around because Westen startedto lose popularity toward the late fifties in the US. There was shows,like Larami or rahide and different from their visits to the cinema. Epicslike Ben Herein, Oursid we're becoming popular and lack of new Western filmsencouraged other countries to produce their owesterns wich is why a lot of itshifted towards Italy in Spain, N in the dawn of the Spaghetti Westens. Onething that almost blew me away was when doing research for his potgast. I Ilooked up just oan Italian, the spegetibisms ha actually been producedand over the period from around n nine teen and sixty Hre andnine tnden ansixty four when they on really started to take off and the late Seventies.There were over five hundred fields, so just poggles o mid a little bit likewith the few fiims fore. Talking about today, like a few feelsa me Ditou,Deliteli Wer, half a thousand films out there, most of which went completelycompletely unnoticed, but at all the rivals, the classic Westerns, where youknow we'd almost have thousand fims a year from Hollywood, just pumping themout. I mean they were what just the superhero movies of today. They were lbeyond th extreme, with ast home many vesterns wereall, every single weat,incredible how vestivariat that old Hollywood used to be it's a good point Chris, and I thinkit's important to mention that when I said earlier that I tended more towardsclassic Western than Spaghetti Westerns. A lot of that is just because Ho wasmaking so many more classic Westerns and putting so much more money into itthan the Italian Studios D. I think it's really worth examining why thatwas why the Western was so popular at I certain point. The fifties not only wasoe releasing a couple of hundred westerns every year, but westernscompletely dominated the TV schedule. A majority of the top twenty T v showswere Westerns and one like rawhide became these legendary setrs thatlasted multiple decades. So I want to mention a little bit about the classicWestern, and one thing is really important. To think about. Is that tome Western is not just an element in pop culture. It presents a kind ofnational mythology of the United States and I'm ane to use those termscarefully. When I say mythology, I'm telling about the sort of stories infolk lore that help express a group of people's identity, their moralconsciousness, their perspective on themselves and on history. The thing Ialways found really curious about American culture is that, unlike othernations, where the sort of the national mythology hearkens back to a point offounding, like a war of independence in American culture, there's relativelylittle cultural content about war of...

...independence instead of Pulk ofcultural content with regark, the past is directed towards Westerns and thereearly speaks to perhaps the fundamental process of not the United States, butreally the Americas, which is when people think of it. Historically, whenpeople think of expounding it's not about a warmandependent, it's rather aprocess of settling of colonialism and also of expulsion of indigenous peoples.And this to me is why the Western is so popular why there were so many hundredsof them really from the foundining of cinema up to the seventies when theyfell out of favor for reasons we can talk about, and, of course, one of these tousonsand pousands of films that hit the big screen was Shane released in nine tded,fifty three directly by one of the most prominent western directors, GeorgeStevens and starting the less popular, but but still quite notable our lad. Asthe stranger riding into towel, shame himself, and the story here isremarkble simple, but what critics and Akademics Tames aitively everyone, has',read: Ino Thi film over the years thus gets infinitely more and more and morecomplex as everything frombroid to rebicionism. To you know, sexualtension. Anything you can imagine, is read into this film chain comes acrossa homested where then have leen and his wife Playd by Foarter Ein her lastmajor. All as always, there is a conflict there. The homesteads areinterrupting the flow of a rich Ransur. He feels like these homes that Tefirest commen take in his lamb, ruined his livelihood and it acourse calledcomflict where, as always where the rich ransher and the homesteather clash,their vallus clash, their power clash and Chan of course gets involved on theside of the underdog. But, unlike many films that are complete, ablackyvitetee is actually tdeegrees of newons there. There is, of course,violence is, of course, clerity WHO's Dodo evil. If you will, but it's amarkable Holl rancer cosis they most do byal or talk with the homesteaters, theteagree of new ones. The degree of civility and even the way, AladPortraciane, the manyats suverge people's expectations of what the rest,especially at this time, is supposed to be to. Let me ask you: what's yourimpression of shame and what whalt your history with whatt you think about it? I dearly dearly, love, Shane andrewatching. It again this week only underscored my love for it. It's amovie. I Guess I've seen three times now. I saw it when I was kid probablywhen I was eleven or twelve when I liked it, then I saw it in college aspart of a class called westward expansion in American history, and Iloved it then- and I loved it even more this past week I tin its a greatexample of a SIC western, but it still has some revisionist elements ofsubversive elements, as Chris mentioned I love perhaps most about it. Is thatwhile it is a typical Western arrative, perhaps a be most typical westernnarrative in which a stranger comes into town and offers his martial skillsat the behest of the righteous townspeople. What I really Lam about itis there is this incredibly dense interweaving of themes and narrativeelements. So much is communicated in Chaine with just very quick words or avery quick shot. You see it from the very beginning when Shan arrives andLittle Joey Star it played by brand an wild pumps. His Shotgun Jane reactsvery violently, and just in that one shot, we suddenly understand the mostimportant thing. We need to know about Chane that he is a man who is familiarwith guns and was also very jumpy, that just one example of how the movielayers in these important character elements very quickly and as we botthrough the movie, the movie becomes more and more layred until we'redealing with many different themes at once. I watched shame this week for the firsttime and I really enjoyed it. I didn't think I was as enaboued with it as Adamwas thought. There was a lot that I enjoyed in it, a love how it startslike many great restauants do with a mysterious. Stranger ran into town andthere was quite a lot of violence through Hollywood, West ofthis area, erof it seemed to be fist fit evergonfights, and I think it's a great metaphor forthe evolution of the United States as...

...well. A shame comes along to defend thetruth and justice and it's a great underdog story. One thing that Ithought was quite amusing was that there was noworehouse in the town, something that you see a lot inSpaghetti Westens. So there's no wonder that the wrunches are intent on roundof a setlers they're in the outlet they have is Gunblin and drinking in theball. I think e Alte point out. Wherea cameacross something that's quite interesting here and just how differentthe worolds of the FAGETIMAS and a classic question is. It is interk ofwhat exists in that Wole. What characters exist, but wewil get ing alittle bit. Lat wel go through tjust Wy. We pick these two filds and I also hada very similar reaction to Tom to be on ta thought. For the second time todayand Old Times, I found tame to get a really boig movie a it's justbeautifully shot, and I believe it was even the bit of Erevolutionary moveint.This way it was one of the first films to use this type of wiselepletetive.This woman to be so much more striping than to have a Western people, wouldsee on their television. An the color are beautiful. The last get bitful. Theprayer is beautiful, it's just very, very well composed, and I also want togive Grat focrat. This do for thihilant, and I don' tell you the outh perfectlywellused, Rilan or henchman of Jack Palans, the Black Cat tat, duns lingerriding in the town, eventually becoming shanes nemesis doest essess SOE littlea even when it comes into town. He walks his horse is not rithing, butthere teres some holrilegens there that SAS. That dekpaut was te sociared ofhorses that L K they could barely put them on the horse that end they shultothim on the Horse, Tis looke too awkward, so they had to compromise whereverpossible, but the way that Dack pollens burrays his character. Rilson as doestthis incredible threat, but ecranlyreasonable TREAP with largeiandtype of cold of his own Wot Bin, readily effective love, Jack Palance.In this movie he provides a maximum of menace with a minimum of words. He is agreat villain and I think the way he was shot by George Stevens was alsovery effective. You mentioned his very slow entrance into town on the horseand there's this great scene where he enters the bar and he has almost aspectral hostily presence. There's this weird dissolve as he crosses the salonwhen he first enters. The story he's certainly a very sinister villain andIlite, your composon or your point to oit about in being aspectal villain,and I love how this notion is kind of taken fevorin in SOM, SpaghettiWesterns, where the origins of the ever the protagonists or the villain areshrouded in in mystery. I like how wechris mentioned the Collus and thebeautiful visuals ind the film. It is very striking very colorful, the ranchthat you see at the star t. It looks like a peaceful place to live until thevillains arrive, unseen. A'd also like to point out a brilliant doubleexposure, shot that really impressed me where it was showing the anger Astarisas the flames arising from a satler's household, and that was incrediblystriking n one of my favorite movements of the film. I thought one of the mostimportant elements was this conflict between the homesetters and theranchers and in a certain way. This is a bit unusual. A bit subversive. Thetraditional Western conflict is between settlers and usually antagonists, thatis seen as exterior to the community. Very often, those were Indians who wereabsent from this movie wor. I was the environment itself, which was verythreatening in this case. Oddly enough, the antagonist is other settlers. It isRangers who came beforehand, which has been unusual in a weird way. I thinkit's actually very strongly imvued with a sense of American history. It reallygoes back to this sort of Hamaltonian versus Jeffersonian argument about whatthe United States should be. Should it be a nation of commerce and bigbusiness, as we see with the large rancher represented by riker, or shouldit be a nation of small landholders nntome is became sort of the centralconflict of the movieg? I definitely picked upon that aspect to the film aswell Adam these smaller businesses vaying for an opportunity just tosurvive and get by up against it. A large greedy corporation was somethingthat is quite relevant for today's society. Totally enough. One of one ofthe best things about shame is that, even in this case, the the greedycorporation is is one we eventually learn more about becomes a bit threedimensional and there's this great scene in the middle movie. I think it'sthe best ing in the movie where riker the big ransher comes to the starathousehold at night and h, he mayes...

...start an offer to end the conflictbetween them that star it will work for him and it's a great scene for a coupleof reasons. First of all, is we finally learn more about reiker and we come tounderstand the conflict from his point of view ounlike most westernantagonists, he becomes a more three dimensional character, O that point.Ther great part of the scene is the tension between Wilson and Shane. It'sthe first time, they've met, although theyare aware of each other's presence-and they say not a single word to each other in that scene. They spend theentire scene kind of sizing each other up, examining each other through dangerand as threat and in one the best moments. They both end up using thesame Tin Cup to drink water, which to me was an expression of sort ofmutualism of recognition were both gunfighters. We have something incommon adink e, big negative for me in this film and it's iusially, becausethis was also one of the more at least to me. Trinionibut. That I t is thechild of the America poll it as volt, most inpuriating, AF, obnoxious,characters I'v ever seen on screen, I'm sorry to say so. Have Nosomeye mighdisagree, but that's the way he speaks the way he idolizes. The way he the way he talks like you, can't beyellow shame ijust its just infuriates me to the core, but at the same time-and I gotto mention this a little bit later, but that character also seemedto have a bit of a math Ilement inwhich excitedme quite a bit because before I get Tha, U Ot N, you guys think of the childactor. I think that Chris you're not alone in hating the kid I think, that'sprobably the most common objection to Chan people can't stand the kid. Idon't feel like quite as much itself just because, even though he's socentral to screen Timeyo, so mucscreen time is kind of very relevant to theplot. I also just want to saying defensive brandon to wild that became agreat actor as an older child and adult and died very tragically young, not before starring in another. SuperbWestern Hud. I'm very though interested to hear Chris Your your theory of theKid's presence in the movie, because you expressed it earlier to us, andit's really an interpretation I haven't heard before, but I'm very intrigued by.I was also quite close to being infuriated with a child acting at ceinpoints in the film there are movments of his performance that are kind ofendearing, but then there are also aspects of it which kind of take awayfrom the film. I understand that he plays an important and integral role tothe film, though so you know he is a Keycoret as far as we're concerned eQuizz, lest Il surf the your theory. I can't wait to hear it. I just GOINNA LEo hat to live bit blonger because there was one really from anecdo about howobnoxos the AV of enset as well, even in real life that Ou kn w. In thatfinal thing, I'm going to Gnan spoiler very very very soon, but ththere isTust, is one seen which is very emotional and I'm not going to spoilwhat it is. But tessentiali an making grimace is every single time. E came tothe multiple to cimacts, to the point that allalad later they had to call himthe child's father of Ha threat of violence. Si Bit we her to get to my tery. I realizeit is reaching a little bit and I made is excessive claim that the himor wayshame to be described as the first friendly games. You know the hummayfilm with the two killers who keep winking at the camera, inviting us theaudience member too en to be part of their journey as they have rast and putthe Famis to extreme horror, ou noi at Tis feeling of infinnete games thatYouare Inon it your im on the violence you wan't at violence. That's why Oucame to see the movie and in shame, which is the Movei. So many medalementsare commentary on the West on America on nogetting the drums out of thevalley, if you will say Yoo bye to the West Irn many ways, the child seems tobe an aldeun standing it it's not as extreme asonegainst, just because thacommon there's way out there, but this child seem to be saying and intendingthe same things that aldiens are saying: Intendng you kno all of their childrenwho brew up it Wester for this Wande fhame to go in there and shoot Thereaboor just won. I shame to be a BADASS IST on e chain to call an extra mile ever awest of it, his hard cool place of gunslingers- and you see this and acontrast between the kids and...

...thisavelitation of the West negletationof all thistrout. Cheering on blood sharing on gunfight with the reality ofyou K of his mother was terrified of it and his much bleaker representation ofviolence in something you should not do Ito. The point that it almost seemslike that TS, true interpretation, mere on,is simply that stevent is done to say this addanization is the idea ofchildren is not real and a second one, which is a bit more startan veryinteresting to me, is that the shold is meant to be the audience and that theaudience is actually just like in front of the Games meant to feel awkward anduncomfortable about what the child is saying and and doing, which could alsotie into Har of NOC as many people finisshout to be so that they realizethat no. This is not actually good. I really like this theory Chris M. it'ssomething that totally escaped me when I saw the movie, I didn't pick up on itat all kind of saw the element of the kid being there as being the sort ofvery, very minor theme of the innocence of Youth. I really like yourinterpretation more, I'm, not sure it's what George Stevens and the scriptwriter intended, but without making this into a discussion of you know howwe interpret movies. I don't necessarily think that authorialintention is the only important basis of interpreting movie. I think verymuch any media product belongs to to audience as well, and I think it's justvery interesting theory about how the kid represents the audience and perhapsthe AUDIENC's unrealistic expectations. Thats a bold unbrilliant comparisonChris, I absolutely love it. You would never, in a million years dream ofcomparing those two fills, but you've got it and batted up with lots ofevidence to support why they're so similar and T at, I think, itis a greatcomposon to make the other thing about the presence ofthe kid in the movie and about this idea that he represents the audience'sunrealistic expectations, especially with regard to violence. Is it'srelated to what I think is probably the other most important narrative theme inthe story. I already mentioned the landholders fers homesteaders conflict.To me, the other conflict is an internal conflict. Is the conflictwithin Shane himself and it's one of the things that makes them such afascinating character, even though he doesn't really see that much in themovie. The conflict is between his past as a gunfighter in his imagined future.As a farmer or as just someone WHO's moreoriented towards domestic and community purposes. It's one of the centralconflicts in Westerns itself. Westerns celebrate the establishment ofcommunity the establishment of society as society in this case, to find assetlar American society as society moves west, and this is a theme thatcomes up again and again in many westerns theme of the gunmen, the manwho offers his righteous fighting powers to the community and whether hecan truly become part of a community most famously that's a theme that wasexplored a few years later in the searchers. But it's not the only one. Ilove just the the beginning of the movie when Shane is seduced by theprospect of community and domesticity. He comes across this ranch. He sees thestump of the tree outside during dinner and he goes out and begins working onthe stump and Van Halflinas Joe Starre joins himand together, they're, finallyable to get this tree stump out of the ground and through that task e,ultimately discovered their own friendship and that to me representschains impulse towards community towards domesticity it's an impulse. Hecan never really follow upon throughout the entire movie. He's sort of anoutsider he's always sort of shone behind corners or through windows. Healways kind of stands apart and that sort of exis more towards the the endof the movie, where we discoverly Kenchan, be a part of this communityand another ting that stops him from really dorning the community. Is thisapparent interest in avalsexual tension between chain and eloters character,where you kin O see this bonding to the point that not evenen Vanhaes characterpoints this out of one part of the movie thatnothese two characters seemelike they could almost belong together, but but Fortes Marion. Of course hewouldn't leave her husband. You also have this thing where in Aholwod hatrelationship Develope, if he shooses to stay, if he oses to beat the Holl, canthis per solt that there's a law of these elements? welwhere he just astoping him from truly being able to be part of the community and the family. TE sexual and romantic tension, thers treated so sotly, it's barely barelymentioned, but it is very important to the story and and, as you said Chris,it's important to understanding how...

...shame can be part of the community.There is a park near the end before the final fight, where Joe Starrit sort ofsays. If something happens to me, you'll be taken care of and the hint isthat Shane will take care of you. That sort of seems one way to resolve thissort of early mentioned love trianbal. Ultimately, the story goes in anotherway and with that, let's carry it over tothe ending itself and the spoiler section. Don't worry if you want toskip ahead. Look in the scription of the bodcast and if just jump to thattime stand spoil of warning nowof course: Goll Startt, whatHeaven's Chareter doesn't co into town, Saing, nots, him out and rides in alone,taking his place going into the ambush against riter whe is also being giventhe opportunity to back out to leave, but it doesn't take it. The tensionincreases and there is Ashoo that also important to the scene is that as ShaneRides away, Joein the child runs after him, paint of horseback, heaways fot,but to then tie way down. Tho town joy runs after them and he sees the entireto dot Tan. I back to myter a little bit like it. Almoys feels like theaudience as well is running after a following Shan and witnessing thisinteraction hat the conceived both through our eye and through Joei's eyes,and the interesting teers tat te shoot out tolls to stand the Troth to acheat.Shame, of course, being the best takes care of bodriker AD Wilson. He draw asecond but shoots first, he is the hero, but there is a third gon man and if itwas not for Jowin, the Turkalman would have sot shane down, but jo yells outshanters round and there's two shots Chan is hit, he's clearly hit. He sitsdown it joeing. He talks to him. He explains to him that the grunts have hileft the valley while to smoer has been talking about all along and he arivesout her ther. Also, so many questions does shame die or doesn't he ise Aladead in Tha final shot, where you see his hand dangling over his horse? Whatdo you guys think and what do e take aways from this ending? I think it'ssuffient ending and one that has la of tragedy. N Shane has found a place where he'sbecome accepted and welcomed and he stood up for the rights of these people,but in doing so he's kind of creaving himself away, because he now knows thatthere's no place for him here because he's been is moture part of aviolenceas the villains of the peace, a Lof, the fact that Shane starts andends in the same way with a similar shot of young child, Jerry WatchingShane, oer arrive or leave in the distance, and it puts in place's idea that Shaneis potentially being in a similar situation. An this before he may havedone this t ohe locations throughout the country, and he may be going on insearch of a better future for himself, but he could just end up facing similarsituations elsewhere. I agree with Tom. It is sort of atragic ending and it is an ending that suggests a theme of recurrence for theshame character that this has happened before and it's it's a theme that youknow I I've seen another westerns. I think of the the Gregory Peck WesternUm, the gunfighter, which I think came out the year before a couple of yearsbefore nineteen. Fifty, that's also about a gunfighter who can't escape hispast. He knows that the thing that makes him distinctive the biggestskills he offers his skills with his bestsen with his guns, is somethingthat separates him from the homesteaters in the valley and then, asa result, isboth morally compelled to fight on their behalf and equallymorally compelled to not be part of their community, and thus it's a verysort of sad moveme. Whether or not you think shame survives, which is, ofcourse a controversial point. I think that's also one of those reallyinteresting theories, because so many people focused on Tust did shame die ordidn't they, but there's also this this, like this, a this circular day of justeven if it didn't die. This is a pattern that shamewy repeat over andover and over again, that's quite a bit of poetry. To that reading of theending as well e just have to ad with...

...regard to the whole is shame deadargument. This is this is an argument and adumentent argument. I've I've hadwith a friend in the past. I had a friend who insisted chain is definitelydead. I gought earlier viewings that the movie was going for a strategy ofpurposeful ambiguity now seeing it for the third time. I guess. Maybe it wasonly the third time I picked up on the fact that Chane's exit shot is himgoing over the hill through the cemetery, which, I guess to me, is apretty clear signal that mome wants us to think that he is writing to hisdeath alikehow. The choice is left up to the audience. Witha, it's a nice,ambiguous, endid, there's a clear indicator. It can support that. Shanehas died, but then, as the hope that he hehas survived to to live on Anoer Day,and I like that, the audience get to choose what fits there in enjoyment tothe film the best. I think what also t intereting here isthat, even here in this ambiguity, you have the same question. You've beenhaving yodmitted entire fill. This idalization of the westward hero alwayssaves a Dane right into the sunset and the more cold and bleak and hordreality at the film is essentiist as the world is, and the question on is:Do you take that idealized version of the West or the reality of the West? Ithink it's fascinating to add that these themes and notions are stillbeing explored. Y Fil makers. Today, I didn't realize how much so at the timewhen I watched Logan the superhero film, there's some clear references to Shanethroughout you see clips from the film and it pays on Ash to it directly. Atthe time I hadn't seen shame but now seensane, I'd love to Revisit Logan andjust compare and see whatover themes. It borrows from shame. That'scompletely true. Thtde rector came out and said that you kno Fain, O themainin e Demain inpiration behind the movie and the Plot Tas. Well, so is ther very,very good comperson and this Tak us all work to the great silence which isimmediately striking thanks to the snowy backdrop of the Monaif O Vuta. Ijust can't understand the beauty of snowy landscapes in Westers it as thisdarkness that really should have been used more, but is wasn't briwing up,snowy western to etself to be Stuc a great pot gas for future episode, butletlet's get beyond that for a second. The plot is just as a shame incorrectlysimple a set of criminals or awaiting amnesty or not in criminals. Many ofthem claim it to be completely innocent, but just unjustly placed on a list anda set of bounty hunters or Trid to askill as many of these men and inwomen as possible bepoor. This happens. This adds a strong moral dimension oflaw versus justice. The bauty hunters are just cruel antil when the canticprisoners often pretending that Thair targets will live if this givethemselves up before, shooting them immediately. At the first opportunity,AF the entire field, Livs ithin, this extreme crul, it dwells on itrepeatedly and their collersness, especially just abodent in the Prsothat kinsy brings the life air, as the leadter of these bounty hunters is justinretibly start jusis in Shane. A stranger here playedby Donris Dentignan, rides into all of this, just like Shane and the BadgangenWilson. He has tho cold that he drol second but shoots first N. Theinteresting thing here is that he is hired by the window of one of theexecuted. Men with desperate for evenge iwill go to any lengts to get it and,of course, the great silence as a hero is called, takes upper cost and starthTou in the way, just like Wilson in shame, Tut himself in situation,whereecanlegally kill- and this is also such an interesting comparison betweenthem, but beyond the trobe of the stranger you have this focus of killing,but within the law hen this focus of killing is taken to. The very extremeis an incredibly violent western, even for the time it was made, and it couldarguably be considered t Kubuchi's finest western, his Muterio in Gnestrunting heis a stroke of genius, and it incorporates a TRAGEC backstory intoa ebliqu Tal of revenge. One of the main things for me that makes it such astrike in film is anyomericoneous haunt in school h. It kind of does me to thetalking it steers up an emotional...

...response in the viewer and fills in thegaps where there's not much conversation going on and there's lotsof Brood in shots, the villains and the pratagenists deciding what to do nextreach her for their guns, and it really builds up a lot of tension here. Kinskyis also excellent, as the villain loco, it's a role that he was born to play.He cast such a great sense of menace with his character kind of shrouded inthis pe piece that he wears from most the fell, and it really is a very dark and andpessimistic Westen. I think you've both done a a lovely job of elucidating.Perhaps the two central themes of this movie on one hand: The law as Chrissaid, on the other hand, death as Tom said this is a movie that is completelyimmersed in death and violence. We see it from the very opening scene, whereGean Litriteno, as silence, rides into a snowy balley he's ambushed by bountyunders. He shoots four of them, one of the bounty hunters attempts tosurrender but silence. Then it shoots off his thumbs and if that isn't enoughone of the bandits nearby, then it finishes off this newly thumblessbounty onter, it's less than four minutes into the movie and Orty fivepeople are dead and one of them certainly killed upon surrendering.That definitely goes against. The classic. tropes of the Western wothetheme is the law, and this is something that comes up again and againthroughout the movie, to the point. Where there's one specific line that issaid twice, it's all according to the law. When we first hear this linehalfway through the movie, we already have a sense that it's not really avery honest line and by the end of the movie we know it's actually a bitterlyironic line, because we've come to understand that the law is notprotecting justice, as the hapless sheriff played by Frank Wolf suggests,but the law is protecting money. I think it's fascinating that towards thestare to t e film when the Sheriff realizes where he's been posted andwhat it may entail visiting this town, it's incredible to think thetransformation that he he makes he very reluctant tat the start, but when heaccepts his job and he gets to the location, he actually does a prettyfine job of trying to maintain law and order. Yeah Yea thisant to comment onthat jus briefly and o like him e at Tin. For a second, because one of thereasons why we settled for Shane and the white silence was because he reallystruggled to do one on one comparison between a classicWestern and foget the Resson, because the trops areso incredibly different. The Stranger grop was really one of the few tropsthat really ruvived. If you look at classic questers, you have theornyveterns, often against Indians, and you have the tol Westers offte body, bya sheriff and in Spaghette Vesten, and also the late ribishonesst Westerns inAmerica. We almost never followd the sheriff the sheriff, if anything isusually, if Sol, an unhappinest a force of evil force. Of Corruption, and herein the great silence we actually get a sheriff. That is neither incompetent. Icomplaint, Moron or bad mean a place a little bitwit. It heis naive in someways, but he is actually shown as just lawful tearing it is forly the mostliable and good person in the entire FAMAS Towin predably unusual, for asPegeti Vester, I have to say, ihave a slightly different reading of thesheriff. I see him as being kind of buffoonish there's no doubt, though,that he means well, and he has this line halfway through the movie where hesays to Klokinsky. The West will be governed by justice, not by violence,but I think that igh likes him, that's not as incompetent, but at least, asyou said Chris as naive, and I think it's his naivete that becomes hisdefining character trait throughout the movie. He seems completely blind tojust how much danger he's placed himself in to the fact that he is notgiving the bounty hunter specifically Kinsky, respect or regarding them as atrue threat, as they should be. But to get to this point you make aboutpotagonist. I agree that the sort of the Spaghetti Westerns have left goodsheriffs. Far Behind I found really peculiar about this movie was thetreatment of bounty hunters in previous Spaghetti, Westerns Weve, seen bountyhunters as heroes, which isself, of course is is kind of outrageous andridiculous. We would never see a boundiontor as a hero in a classicWestern, but what makes the great sounds even more bleague is here: Eventhe bounty hunters themselves are evil.

I would als like to draw ICT of aninteresting comparison again between chain and Thegi silence, because in away they perfoas of Shane and Wilson, and here the great silence and localhaving flipped in shame. You have on shame being this thischaritul kind ofunrestimate, Lopeipe, poited out hower and he seem made to look AbitDhefeminiteo people could leave he's a coward or Paul Him as Hod poper andthrow all Onerovi her Tursday, because it don't take hit seriouslytheyarestinathim. They keep on restimating him and that's how a lot ofdegaaters view LoC gradiy place little bit more of Uafood like this friendlyDessorbo Foon, which has their canurnessness to them hic, is so falseand striking, but still there's a simularity and that if you flict itover to Wilson and Theway islends, you have this bruing. Obviously, the GreatTane e can't speak H, Hes Mute, but you have thes characters. Esstam very, verylittle have a very similar cold and also the same mission, which is toplace themselves into situations where they can legally murder them all thenotion of being able to legally murder someone just hie out o a lot of thetwisted morality that is present in the r great silence seems to be anunwritten pode of law between a lot of the bountiontus and the sheriffs. Thereis this beautiful sort of amparison to be made between Chan and the greatsilence on the point that com an presive of highlighted, but it's one ofjust many. It's it's it's one of the reasons that I think these movies pairso well together and theme after theme. We see the great silence provide a sortof reversal or a counterargument to the theme as it was expressed in shame. Wesee it with the treatment of the law, the treatment of violence. The violencein chain is ar sort of delayed. It's always coming later than you think it.Well, we see. Shane is insulted in the bar in town, but he doesn't react. Heactually waits note. Ten, fifteen minutes N in screen time until a secondvisit to the bar to retaliate, the violence in in the great silence issudden its random. It's unexpected. It's unreasonable. There seems to benot a way to prevent it. Hras the violence in chain was slow wasreasonable. There is so much discussion that happens before things get to apoint of violence: Els O Suc, an interesting contrast between and womenlead in Bott of these fielms, where in shame in Oganagras this moral authoritythat really wants pease and is t and estentially represents the new Westfror wish of getting the grugs out of the valley is Com, the morality thatthe field takes up in the great silence, the widow whor Urg is only for revengefor more and more and more violent n. That is also kind of morality. Thefield ends are taking B, t eat, it's the tol. The film takes I's anothergreat point of comparison. The female character in chain is iporte into theplot, but never really is her own actor in the plot she's important to thestarits, but she has no real agency. Decisions are constantly driven by herhusband and by Shayne himself, whereas we see in the great silence that thedecisions made by the femalelyd played by Vaneta mcge that provides thedriving force for the plot and it's her desires and what she wants. That'scontinually moving the plot forward. It's interesting to note that, in thegreat silence, even the women aren't safe from the danger of th, the bountyhaunters there's a few pretty nasty deaths in that respect, and I alsowanted to mention we bederecto segolion when he started making his SpaghettiWestons. He wanted to rid the west of talky characters who slow down the plotso that he could concentrate on the action and Kupichi takes this andrunsof it Meetero in sience. One of the most memorable movments of the film forme is when silence's hand gets burnt in the R hot holes, and there's this you imagine it to be like a gutturaltinf scream, but because he can't speak the come wee just focuses in andthere's this horrible silent scream, and that, for me, is one of thestandard parts in the film. Can we also take a moment is appreciat the factthat this is ty, I trandingo only Western. In his entire career I meanthiss onafront's, most prolific actor, and this was the only time he showed upInvestin and, of course, it's also completely mute Grande a dubbing. Itwouldn't have mattered. anyways Itis,...

...just like tae kind of Ara kind ofintensity he brings to the all, is absolutely incredible. His performanceis great, not only expressions but the way he moves and the emotion that heconveys with his eyes, and I feel that a lot of that is enhanced by Moriconissound crack. That brings to life an lot of the feelings that you imagine hischaracter is going through. At any point, I they te off ther GNOTA onmen,to talk about t difference in cinematic styles. Far and just results F differsthese two captivois of Western, so darkly inshane. Of course they have allof these beautiful Ponderamar Fot and in the gay silence like so manyrestership. Most of the stabbe rolls from you know, instant camera soms justtomuch movement, and it does in some way eat into the this cinemotographicbeauty of it a little bit, though, it doesn't hurt that marches tangs o thelandscape, but it still has this slightly cheaper, xitly, more efficientway of making a fiem, which ofcord also works, because it'sMuhharshr kind of story yeah, I think h. The cinematic style in the greatsoulence is is a perfect example of the larger spaghetti. Western style.Editing is abrupt, there are extreme close ups, dopping is, is just awful.The production design is sort of rough and u'mpolished. There's a general slapdash feeling to the entire enterprise. It feels and looks a little bit cheap,and this contrasts, of course, with the very classic Hollywood style of shame,but that's not to say that the Spaghetti Western style is bad. It canbe bad. There are definitely some points where the film is veryoverexposed and you kind of think. What am I looking at here, but that samestele also gives the story a lot of energy. Some of the negative attributesthat you mention Nowadamo of the film's production. I think they enhance forseveral feelind th, Rawlness OB is and Hoy work well with the violence and thecinematography does have moments of brilliants. This is one of the BestSpaghetti Westerns, so it's Nirce to see that Korbuci elevates the kind ofporplinins of it of Spaghetti Western to something that does have quite a lotof cinematic beauty throughout and at all thing that, unlike so many older,spageteas terns, the wile sandlent is a lot more mellow in even into Merconisbeautiful sountrack, it's not as loud or clear, or you know, Capsi as we'dfind them in the onlest movie or Corpo t Olliger that cou compare th thesoundtrack, her compibic discompare that to say the Field Tina the next year, noPomboneros, which is probably or of the most Catcshi Bu, get the Res Som Chackof all time cause withall the thing all that Meldit does driveit, though entire of Hilm. It is such a different atmosphere from Sol many alterspagetimists, I agree in it. It shows the tremendous range of the ATLAMENTEDANNYAMARA one. I love the comparison to Companieros, which has a very sort ofhigh energy, fast driving score. It's similar to the score from death ridesof wars en we see Maraconi, take a much different approach for a story that isnot nearly as rousing as companrs, her the scores Little sweler a little morecontemplative, a little more sad still very beautiful. Can allse ask onequestion because you mentioned they are throses dumbing like when you watch aSpaghetti Western. Do you prefer to work it in the English tub or in theItalian DAB? Any other tub, I think every SpaghettiWestern I've see is I've only had the English DUB available. I remember whenI saw Spaghetti Westerns as a kid. I found it odd that the the sounds of thecharacters dialogued ad not match the movement of their their faces on screenand the funny thing is I mean to this day I I will refuse to see any dobpedmovie, with the exception of Spaghetti Westerns and I've just learned toaccept it as something that is intrinsic to the genre itself. Therewill be bad dubbing and in some ways I guess maybe its adds the charm a littlebit. I totally agree with Adan. Now, I'm not really fun of of debinaco.Think of many people that would be put in Spaghetti, Westens, it's Semtrinthat goes and in Andred the gonre and you just get used to it, and you knowyou kind of forget that it's there after a while. So it doesn't really detract from theexperience for me. That's Interesng Importanto, becausewhenever I can, I actually watch it in Italian and away Siene owne worite. Idon't remember if I thought in English...

...the first time, but this time I gotblue ray off it, which ha the Italian track as well. That was, I think, theOP, for me at least, is better because, first of all I I'll be reading thestubtimes EMSELV. I won't be forcis other mouth and it just runs. Let issmod for me. I do exactly the same thing with when I was geallof films as well n that I just I really don't like it soundsTome I can get used to it and if there's only the English job that rerefine and some can be great, all the Samemen of the doller Filig and theonly movies are duged quite well. But if I can, I always go for the Italianvession therewas one more comparison. I want to point out before we get to theending there's one more comparison. I want to mention that I thought it wasreally interesting between the great silence and Shane, and that is thescenic aspects of both movies they're, both among the most beautiful WesternsI've seen just in terms of the scenery which, of course, sceneri s is one ofthe main appeals traditionally of the Western Shane. We have this greatsetting in Wyoming you're people familiar with the American West. Youcould very clearly see it's in what is now Grand Titon National Park, that isthe grandtiton Masif kind, the San, it's also a very welcoming enviroment,and it's very subtle but um. I thought one of the the sort of backgroundthemes of shame was how welcoming and farmentally this spelly is. We see thisbeautiful reddy source of water glowing through the Starat ranch, even thoughWyoming is preditionally a very dry state. The comparison with the greatsilence, of course, is the great science is also stunningly beautiful,but it's a much more threatening environment. It's a dangerousenvironment. The extreme snowiness is a constant hazard to the characters wesee. One character die because of the threat of the environment, and theother thing, of course, is that the snow is a disguise multiple timesthroughout the movie we see guns and corpses emerged from the snowbanksthere's a suggestion that the snow is hiding the essential violence of theland, Thaes a great point, Adam alike, howthe snowy backdrop isn't just abatro plays and table part story in manyaspects, particularly where the villain of the pieace Loco will kill it andbecause he's only able to transport them to the sheriff he'll just leavethem in the snow, because he knows that the collies will stay fresh, so we canreturn to them at a later time to collect them, and at this point I thinkto time as deep as we can into the great islands, we have to talk aboutthe ending spoil, O Waringi, think thit's, areally interesting thing here: a accepting expectatients in shame, Yinknowwithought, Shane riding into town his owln accord. He was in his bestelement in the great islence before theshoaldown is even sad. He his heard deeply hurt. He wasalready beaten, then his hand. His shooting hand was turntd the Udisconsistently taking away more and more of the likelihood of the great islencebeing successful or being a TRACP at all. He just shorness becoming weakerand weaker and weaker to the point that, as the climax is coming, he is inhiding barely able to move the women are protecting him and then based onthe sheriff's good nature, the bandit, if on, to call them that have come totown to eat, but unbenound to the sheriff. A different pack of BountyHunterh have come riding down, theyhave captured all of them. They have takenthem into the bar at a treat of deat and Kinsky whosends. A stark and clearshalage come out fight me one to one, and if you win, nothing will happen. My men will leteverybody go and especially based on the very clearcold of morality that, even though it's Shiki you have seen some bounty onterbeforehand, you're, not sure if you can trust it or not, but you you're prettysure you can't, and even if you can shane it's so weak that he don't thinkhe'll be able to do it. They rises to the challenge he goes out into the snow.He shoals up in front of the bar with his unburnt hand, not the shooting ofthis unburnt hand readly to pull the trigger and for a second, you feel Teofor a second. You feel that the great...

...touns could actually be able to pullfirst AKE, even against all of this diversity. The hero could still comeout on top, but then just as inshane there is a second dun man pointing aRivale, an onlike chain, thiston and suits first, he shoots his only goodhand to the point that you now know that thegreat ound said no way of making this. He falls to his knees, bold, his Hazarable to grab a gun, local comes out and you'll, not sure what to expect cut back. Of course, the sheriff we nowbelieve its dead. He was fot through the eyes by locas loca escape, and ifthis was you Kno Maye a classic vestern. At this point, it might have been FINCteroreal that the Sher iff, actess suviding, climbed up of ther eye Maye,got help roll back andsave the day. Trying to think is any hope. Is thereany hope whatsoever? What can happen but resent ttedest? Isn't he shot tat?Ten? The window runs overto him grabs,thegun, ready to shoot she killed as well, both of them or laying dead, thebaldunters turn to their captives and shoot eat, and every single one there'sst so much ligulance in Tistis two three minutes: Everyone is Tean, thebad guys are victorious and they ride away ready to collect their revor andinterestingly, and, unlike almost every other pagaty Western, we now realizethat this is actually in part base on a true story, as you get the text comingup, that this massacre changed how the West viewed boute hunters forever,giving us, at the very least, a kind of relief, a kind of understanding thatthis changed something for the better but all the same. The bleakness, thecoldest butality is still with us. Just to add this last segment saying ispace in a real story, we're not even sure if we can verifythat that could even be Destimaltev added to give the story a little bitmore of a happy. Ande can even say that, so how did that ending? Leave you bat.The first time I watched the great silence. I was completely stunned andshot by the end in it. So bleak and nasty and, like you said, Chrisitcompletely subvers the audiences expectations, because, even thoughsilence the oddser stat against him, you just think that there could be aglimmer of hope. He could somehow survive this, and the film does lead Outo believe tha. He may make out alive but ultimately goes down the darkerroot, which perhaps of the reason why great silence is so well acclaimed orrenowned. Now for the rout that it takes with the ending it's interestingto know that the great silence wasn't even released in the UK or e us,because its ending was deemed too pessimistic for the audiencessensibilities and Korbuchi was actually forced to shoot a happy ending wherethe sheriff dol survive his fall into the lake and save silence. But I think that the ending as itstands is perfect. I Win't change anything and I like that. The fate ofthe Sheriff Fallingto, the lake is never explicitly shown. So whensilencis up against loco in the final moments, you do kind of think in theback of your heads, well has the sheriff surrived? Is there a chancethat he could make it out and not just adds an extra layer to the finale? ITom, I had the exact same reaction when I first saw the great silence aboutfifteen years ago. I was completely stunned. I just couldn't believe thatthis would happen in a western. It's it's one of the reasons I I like. Themovie as much as I did is indicative of direction of Westerns in the latesixties and the seventies westerns became increasingly bleak, increasinglycynical, increasingly violent, and increasingly depressing really strikesme is how that ending scene subverts...

...all of our expectations of what shouldhappen in the final showdown. It's not just that a hero doesn't win, it's thathe doesn't really have a chance. First, his gunhand is injured, but that's okay.We think he can get through that. After all, in KORBUCI's previous movie, JangoJango has his hands broken before the final showdown, and yet he is stillable to emerge victorious. Well, that won't happen for us here. The greatsilence never gets his one on one show down with Klaus Kinsky. Instead he'sambushed from a window by one of Kinsky's enchman shot through the otherhand, he's completely helpless. He shot again through the window by thehenchmen, and then Kinsky finishes him off. If the movie had just ended there,it would have already been very subversive and quite shocking, butthat's not enough. Widow is then murdered, and then this really can onlybe called this massacre of the bandits. It is probably the most surprising andshocking ending I've ever seen in a western, more the most shocking I'veseen in any movie like tebpoint off. This is ost reasons why this tit wasalso held up, as was one of the greatest bestens of all time, becauseanyone watching this film for the first time will be sout like if jus thisprogression of the EMD gives it so much power that, even if something didn'twork, even if in resort with the English job and it tought, some of itis bad. Like that end, it gets you it's impossible not to get you, and I thinkthe only issue fror me were watching Itit is that Tom of that slight dramais degreas. L K so much of the way townsis that you don't know what willhappen if tebirds every trol the prize is ta a magnistficant part of yourfirst viewing, which is not as strong on lateoviewings, but still that endingit gets you. It gets o every single time glad you mentioned that Chris, Irewatched the great souns this week. It was the second time I saw it. I didn'tquite enjoy it nearly as much as I did the first time. I think that's no faultin the movie itself. It's just that. So much of the enjoyment of the moviecomes from not knowing the plot ahead of you. I remember the first time I saw,for example, one of the great mysteries of the movie is why the silence notspeak. It's something that's not revealed until halfway through themovie, knowing the reason for that, when seeing it again detracts alof fromthe enjoyment, but it's still it's a magnificent movie. It just that a lotof the enjoyment of the movie comes from these surprises and the mysteri esalong the way. I think the one thing I'm happy aboutor everyhewd altis might be a little bitit appointed about this, that thereweren't any grade show down, even though we all have differentpreferences, I think poto classic restaurants and Spaghetti restaurantshave so much to offer so much diversity and so much theversion that can makethem infinitely interesting. Just these two films taken side by side gave us apool episode to explore their deeper intentions than in their plays, investin history, and bull had so much to offer, including Oodid, not get thetime to mention her, and I think there ase so many othergrats by Getiv vessans. We can also have done a comparison with older,fantastic in great classic Westerns, so just to leave it with this. This willnot be our last Bestan episode. We will return at one point in the not sodisant future with our dollar realiaship the episode and I'm surethere'll be macmkmor to come down the roll for. Thank you for listening and doingit again soon. You have been listening to talkinginbeche O fisial Haus cast o ICM FOR DOT COM.

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