Talking Images
Talking Images

Episode 29 · 1 year ago

2001 vs Solaris (Space Exploration, part 1)


Get your battle helmets on - we're doing this.

2001 vs. Solaris.

Kubrick vs. Tarkovsky.

Oh, and ... all of cinematic history, well ... in space anyways,

Yes, that's right - in this glorious two-part episode (did we mention that were will be a follow-up?!) we will look at ALL of space exploration history - going all the way back to A Trip to the Moon.

Early films excluded, which, can almost be seen as fantasy as opposed to science fiction - we have a bold proclamation to make - and that is that 2001 and Solaris exemplify the two clear paths most late space exploration films take. 

Essentially, there is the idea - and within this episode we may get closer to figuring out if it is true - that great films of space exploration do one of two things:

1. Use space exploration to explore grand themes and concepts.

2. Use the idea of space exploration to discover truths about the human psyche.

And of course - as always, there is an overlap.

In this episode, we will cover the early days of Space Exploration, and the debate itself.

And for a quick sneak peek - in the next episode we will essentially dive into all the major space exploration films that came later - and not only talk through them - but see them in the context of 2001 and Solari - and discuss which path they chose to follow, and which, if any, break free from this binary.

Happy listening, and please join in the discussion at

You are listening to talking images, the official podcast of ICM Forumcom. Welcome back everyone, I'm Chris, and in today's episode we're going to dedicate ourselves entirely the vastness of space, not just the space surrounding our home planet, but the space of our collective imagination, because in that space relays near infinite amount of distant world's planets, moons, apparations and phenomena. We can hardly grasp. The idea of space travel or, more poignantly, the idea of discovering these far away worlds, has been engraved into our very being and have had a presence in the world of film since the Very Bird of cinema. It is more than hundred years since George Mallie premiered a trip to the moon, almost a hundred and twenty years in fact, and more than fifty years since the actual moon landing. As always, fantasy conquers the ground first, but is it accurate? Of course not. A trip to the moon created a vision we sadly probably could not see today, a wish of pure fantasy, of the unknown, of the incredible possibilities that lay ahead, and for a time this was what base exploration was a mystery, a fantasy, a world where moonment exists, where you can take a train to the sun and where every planet has readable are of course, this fantasy could not live on forever. Something happens when fantasy meets reality, when the unknown becomes the known, the fantastical becomes science and the future at a stands today becomes the past. In this episode we will explore how the concepts of space exploration has developed throughout the history of film. It will go through the early years of fantasy and, perhaps more importantly, we will pick up the perhaps greatest debate in science fiction. Two Thousand and one versus Solaris. I mean, okay, I'm sure by any real metrics the real debate is star trek versus Star Wars, but we're not that podcast. However, we're not just going to look at these two films in the context of being the most acclaimed and respected sci fi films of all time, but not to mention by two of the most respect directors of all time, Stanley cubrick and under there Coski. Know there is something far more important in the contrast between these two masterpieces, to represent the major disruptions films of space exploration, discounting the space operas. At least to one fantasy became reality, the conceptual versus the intimate, large versus small. Essentially, there is an idea and within this episode we may get closer to figuring out if it's true that great films of space exploration do one of two things. Use Space explanation to explore grant teams and concepts, or use the idea of space exploration to discover throughs about the human psyche. In all the words, it's a question of exploring the universe versus exploring ourselves. Does this, they called me, a whole of the scrutiny, and which experience it is more powerful? There is so much to talk through in this episode, so let's bring in, as always, my wonderful cohost, mature, Tom, Clem and Saul. Introduce yourself and, just to get the conversation going, did you want to become an astronaut when you were a child, or did you dream about discovering unknown planets and world's? Hi, I met you from friends and speaking on that, before the pronunciation podas gets you, Chris, it's pronounced mid. Yes, for once, es is not science bloody hell. So No, I did not particularly remember wanting to be an astronauts as a child, but I do remember being quite fascinated with space planets the solar system, or at least my parents than he. That's in Kinderga and that was the thing I was always fascinated with. There was a little parts where you had a model of the solar system and it was always around that. I have a vague memory of that. So generally I've always been very interested in space, space exploration and those subjects, but not particularly wanting to take part myself. It seems way too dangerous for me. Hey, this is claim also from friends. I'm really happy to be back, just like mature. No, I don't remember being very interested in exploring space or becoming an astronaut when I wanted to grow up. However, recently, thanks... films and general curiosity, I started becoming more and more interested to space and other planets, but I'm very much a beginner in that aspect. Hi Everyone, this is Tom from England. I also never really had dreams of being an astronaught. When I was younger, however, I was fascinated with space and stars and a lot of the science fiction films that I watch when I was younger really connected with my imagination and of the fantastical elements, the journey into your known and encounters with new life. So really excited to talk about all these aspects to day and how they claim to the films that we're going to discuss. I it's saw from Australia. Like a number of my co hosts. I was quite fast with spice and exploration growing up, but was very fast by the planets and the solar system and sort of learning like ones like Pluto had only been discovered then very recently by comparison, and made me really wanderup what is out there. And I suppose some of the stuff I also watch growing up, not so much some of the cartoons like Marvin the Martian, that's a little bit silly, but some of the even some the claimation stuff. I'm thinking about a ground out with Wallace and GROMON. I know it's a little bit silly and bit Cutesye, but it just gives that sense of wonder and awe or what actually might lie out there if we ventured out into space. Interestingly enough, I think I'm into completely different direction, as I should. There was far more interested in archeology in the ring wealth. was buried on the ground there what was above me. But I think I think grew older the questions of space clearly flared up and this question of what was out there has obviously always been a part of the human imagination, whether or not it was the side that both the moon and the sun were gods or whether or not they were planets in their own right field with life and human light creatures. And I think the very first film to actually cover life on the moon and a trouble to the mood is of course, really has a trip to the moon from nineteen old too, even though the man the moon himself did make and the parents in one of his earlier films and a sort of were three. So as a warm up for this episode, that did ask everyone to sit down and catch up on a trip to the moon again. So so what was your first impression of going back almost hundred and twenty years and seeing how the orchmale is perhapslutively imagine space travel to be, but one that represented to capture the collective imagination of people everywhere? I think my first reaction was well, space, it's the moon, just in a normal clothes, maybe even not really, and the absolutely fine. I really enjoy it. Yeah, I definitely agree. And picture of the moon being hit in the face by the space ship is also very famous image here. I don't know if it's not the case in other countries. I really enjoyed the film as well, for it's not very scientific way of behaving, let's say you. Not only for the fact that they're just walking on the moon, just without any space suit, or the fact that the space CP is just launched into space by a guy press single button and and to go back to Earth, this one guy putting a rope and the space you just falls back into Earth again. I thought it was filled with clever ideas. I had forgotten that it was made so long ago that it was really fun rewatch. And Yeah, it's probably maniest most accomplished film. I feel like you guys are being a little tough on the realism. I mean, this was before relativity, so we didn't really know even how Garverage you would work. I mean he got the basic idea right to be. Basically say, okay, not really, not really there, but the rest is, the start is pretty good. Way Do I do know the trip to the moon is pretty gorgeous. I think it's one of it's actually so still the only man, yes, I've seen, to my shame. Oh, we watched it with the air soundtrack. That's a fun thing. With odd silence is that. Sometimes, before the most famous ones you get these new modern soundtracks, and the air soundtrack is pretty good. It's pretty fun. Yeah, generally it's just a very fun thing that blows the line between science fiction and fantasy. As you mentioned this, I don't really have much to a beyond what's been said about a trip to the moon. I would say that it is much more fantasy than science fiction and therefore the realism probably doesn't bother me that much. I just see it is very fats all, sort of like the mob and the Marshan cartoons or whatever, and as a really strike me as hard like science fiction. But you know, that's fine, because...'s just a Melli experimenting and putting weird and fantastic images up which people are seeing before, which is what he excelled at. Yeah, the perspective is those feud as well. I mean the scene where they're taking off, you see them standing on top of houses, essentially with the foreground being smaller than the background. So it's it's clearly not intended to be all really realistic, and this is one of the things I love so much about the sin you all of Mali as films, which is just the way he uses background and foreground, and this incorporates these massive, essentially top laws of graphics. That does work so well together and one thing I really love about them. Not sure if you guys watched it in color or not, but obviously so many of George Malie as films, including this one, were hand painted to just create this extremely, at least by the day, stands unusual and incredible visual impact that you don't never see anywhere else, and it's it always captures, captures me. Yeah, I really watched it in a black and white, but I think that the first time I saw it was in a quarter and yeah, I definitely agree. The fact that they had limited quarters and they were painting frame by frame offers some very not strange, but unusual mix of quarters, others that are quite fleshy, and makes it well unusual for the time and also unusual by today standard, because we don't see films made with this type of colors anymore. Oh, and just to answer the question from earlier, the Im basically hitting the moon is famous everywhere in the world. I think you think it's probably one of the most iconic image in all cinema, or at least one of the most iconic images notices in them. I see it on Tshirts of people are probably never seen the film. It's just such an incredibly looking visual. And then, I mean we could have gone into the moon man who go poof every single time you fight them and seemingly die, and the fact that gravity is just straight down, and we could probably go into the follow up as well. Did anyone see the impossible Varya, to which she did two years later? No, I haven't seen it, very easy people. Even the shortest films we don't watch. But yeah, I think what's so interesting about the impossible voyage is that it's essentially a duplicate of a trip to the moon, just with the sun as a destination and with a lot less realistic ways to travel there. So you know they go by train into the all through space, but they do have almost exactly the same visual where they drive into the sun instead of the moon and the sun is a planet and they can you know walk around there, also hand painted, but I think for me at least, it just feels a lot flatter and dollar it doesn't have the magic which a trip to the moon has, even though it's still a good film and I do love so many of the short films Malia. So I think for me at least, this was a slight bit of a let down. I think probably this too focused on a few key effects and just too much of a replicate of a drifting moon. I think what's interesting, though, about me, yes, going back to the weather, of going to the moon, is that right away from the starts of cinema it was immediately used for this. Right immediately, stema seemed like the right medium to explore this, I think, because you obviously science fiction is gone from literature first, but it feels like it was. I mean it obviously was when they're from the start, and cinema has really won with it, I guess. Oh yes, and especially the concept of going to the moon, which I'm going to talk about a little bit about the next two films coming up, and I'm just so it's haddened the noble shock that none of my co hosts have seen woman on the moon by Fritz Lang, from onus nine hundred and twenty nine and one of the biggest Tai fi films of the S. I don't think it's actually all that surprising, Christ, considering it's throw your three and a half hours long, about the same length that's metropolis, but better, I think, if you look at Dr Maybe's too. I mean that's at least four hours long as well. So Fritz Lang loved making long epics and I love for its Lang. But one of the things I so often forget that I think about this work and I'm always impressed by how well it works as well. It's just how pulp beat many of its films are. I mean, woman in the moon really has the plotting of a cereal, complete with a child sneaking onto the ship heading for the moon, and you're doining this group on their adventure. And... also has that team with your us is seen the spiders and doctor maybe's, with this secret organization up to Shenanigan's, versus these upright upper classes that only really exist in German fiction and German cinema, especially in the twenties and thirties. The Space Mission here is also, importantly, not a state matter, but a private venture by a dreamy eyed company, with its owners taking the trip themselves, along with the professor who created all the plans. And though the first eighty or ninety minutes of the film it's an earth dealing with sleecy figures and all of these intrigue, it's really the space elements are that blows your mind because they're just so incredibly well done. It's not necessarily realistic, but they try to capture the G forces and the effects in terms of their rocket and how it's shot up. It's quite spectacular. But we also spend so much time, I think, with forty or fifty minutes inside of the rocket on the way to the moon, and there's dealing with the issues coming up within space, though of course when they arrive they do figure out that the moon has completely breathable air and that you accomplish their mission of finding gold. So yeah, it's it's a really fun hope be adventure that's just made so bloody well because the visuals, the weight shot, the effects everything here is just what you love about Frislang. So did that sell anyone on actually watching it? I'm definitely intrigued by Chris I am a huge fritzline fun so it's a bit of a glaring gap in my film view in history. So I will do my utmost to watch it and complete my homework for you. I'm definitely interested in watching it. I mean it is a sitchtime thin. When just that done, we're getting to thumpy aspect. I think just generally, Sisi was considered to be a lower form of arts in that yeah, I think it's only started to be taken seriously in the s and of coursing the S S with the sin we are going to talk about. And One more film I think we really should mention before we get on to the main dish, is the cosmic journey or the cosmic voyage or the spaceship, or what are you want to call it, which it's something as weird as a Soviet silent SCI FI released in one thousand nine hundred and thirty six and, despite being a silent in the sound era, which just seems so contradictory, it looks incredible. They really took so much time to set that the effects here and the focus, of course, with their socialist realism, which ironically got the film band by sensors eventually because it didn't like the low gravity on the moon, which was accurate but unbelievable to the sensors at the time. But there are something accuracies, like the rocket is fired from a ramp, but almost everything else is handled correctly. I think this is the very first time we see zero gravity in space and it does has so much fun with it. It's also the first film that really goes into how much work has been done before, with animals being shot into space and unmanned face ships being shot into space and it already having ships land on the moon. It really just go through the scientific methodology here, and that makes sense because one of the story's leading scientists worked on this, giving them all of the information of how to make it as accurate as possible, and it shows some of the most incredible things. Here are the actual moon scenes where, and I think they stop motion, you see them jumping over large gaping holes and just there's just so much exploration on the actual moon that looks so much better than you would expect. The plotting, of course, is very thin and and it has some really fun overlaps with the woman in the Moon in that you have an all the male scientists, a woman and a child, the latter one sneaking of the ship throughouting, you of, to the moon. Of course, there's also a very pro Soviet message, with one of the spaceships being called Jose of Stalin, and a message of how children are the future, though, perhaps the most interesting thing here is that it's set in a very near future, specifically in one thousand nine hundred and forty six, I suppose, the world without World War II, and just how close they believed...

...that they were. I think that last point you mentioned, Chris, is quite interesting to see that the action of the film takes place only ten years after the film was actually made, because usually in sci fi movies the action will take place at least one hundred year after the film is actually made. But the fact that it only was set ten years in the future shows that probably in real life they thought that they could be quite close of actually exploring space. I also think it's fascinating quest that you mentioned they were striving for realism with their depiction of space travel and how that is being built upon in the coming years, with lots of films employee scientific advisors to make sure that the science aspect to the film is up today with the coin standence of technological advancement. So it's fascinating to think that this really on. They were striving for that realism also, and to go wrong with that. The but mentioned about the special effects being really good. I mean generally the things we are talking about here. They're almost always at the forefront of visual effects and special effects in cinema. That's obvious. Science fiction has done lots in that sense to advance visual effects and its on just sence fiction that often because it requires it. That's very true and I think it's it might even be easier to create a good special effects in space if you want to play around with things, because you have so much dark space and you have these big spaceships that are quite easy to model. So I suppose in some ways it's a lot about decoration instead, and then you have the very specific effects later on. So it in the older days, I guess, base exploration and space travel and these forms of Sci fi had a bit of an advantage as well. So it's clearly not applicable to all. I mean there's so many other early sci fi films that we could have brought up, including a lot of quite terrible be movies. And of course there's there are other larger films to like Destination Moon, which is essentially the flip side of cosmic journey in that it's very American and all about the greatness of American entrepreneurs going together to put someone on the moon because the government can't do it, and a lot of patriotism involved in that as well, interestingly enough. And there you have some less than great graphics. Doesn't don't it's still quite good. I think a lot of these spaceis just go for it. They go for it various degrees and the manage to do things that we remember. But that's just Dell into the true meat of this podcast. Two Thousand and one versus solely Aris the two most respected films on space exploration and, interestingly, both made in the midst of the space era. Two Thousand and one coming out in one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight, the year before the moon landing, and solely as being released in one thousand nine hundred and seventy two, the year of the last moon landing. At least after twenty four of the twenty century. Let's see what the future holds. So let's start with two thousand and one, as it is the first and it's iconic music has in some way become synonymous with space travel itself. There's just so much to speak about there, from men in ape suits to Mumdel it, to the music, including the symphonies, and to the sound design especial effects that are still held up as incredible until this very day. And then, of course, there's also the quite nun additional plotting and the final act. But don't worry, we will actually add a spoiler warning before we get there, though it's quite hard to believe someone has not yet seen two thousand and one. anyways, since it's just so much to talk about there, let's this dive straight into it. What if the one thing that symbolize the two thousand and one for you? I don't know that symbolizes, but I think the most important moments in the theme is the cuts, the famous cuts between the Boon and the spaceship. I think that's really is what the thing is about, right. It's about humanity and technology essentially, and how technology is just that, is just a tool, and so from the boon to the spaceship, it's just a matter of time. So I think that's to me, the most striking moment in the thin that is full of striking moments. That's a great choice of striking moments. I think for me it's difficult to pinpoint it to one single moment because, as you say, they're just so many superbs scenes that we say when fold in front of our eyes, when we're watching two thousand and one.

I mean Kubricks science fiction masterpieces. For me, the definitive space exploration film. It combines simple yet exquisite storytelling with an astonishing depth, with mean and, thanks to the clarity of cubric, spectacular vision and based upon off sea clocks, fascinating short story, a sentinel. Two thousand one traces the key evolutionary steps of mankind on the influence of a series of mysterious monoliths that are encountered at various points in humanities development and the way they Cuba displays all this. It's just a Tacu left from the start until the very end. There's so much to digest and really is just one of the hallmarks of science fiction and cinema. Yeah, I'm also struggling to find a key moment in the film. I do think of one moment, but it's towards the end of the film, so I guess it's a bit spoilery, so I don't think I could mention it just yet. I think the most important part of the film for me is the visuals throughout the films. That are absolutely gorgeous. It's obviously Hubriks, so we knew what to expect, but that was just surprised. That's how good the film looked from the beginning to the very end. Just to go back a little bit on them what mature said, the film starts with the almost the beginning of men, channel at least what looks like the beginning of Mentine, with apes fighting over water and resources, and it's actually literally called the dawn of Man. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think it's interesting to notice that the planet it takes place on is not the earth, at least that's what I believe, because that's where the monolith is, and the leaf is actually on the moon. There's more than one monolith. That's the whole idea. They're planning monoliths everywhere for human kind of find over time, all the cells. My takeaway. Okay, okay, same here. All right, I said they were a true maybe it's maybe it's the same Moneli that moved, but I definitely did not think that it was on the moon. Okay, I thought, actually thought it was on the moon at first and humanity just destroyed itself because of because of it and somehow got back to two earth or maybe they were too population well on earth and one on the moon, and so well, in the moon just went extinct because of it. I think, I think that's right. Actually, I think that works. Also, I don't think that's necessarily what's intended, but whatever, I like that interpretition, interpretation. I think it works great well. Actually, yeah, I've never heard it before. We keeping you in that. It's a pantathic interpretation. It's interesting and like reminds me of like planner of the APE. So, though, I don't know if it quite holds water, because then it's sort of you've got this where's the artificial gravity that, if they actually are, if the apes are on the moon at the beginning of the film, westing interpretation, I don't know, but I move on with my yeah, good, yeah, it's really great that claims launched into this first initial stretch of two thousand and one even though he's interpretation of it is very different to our interpretations. For the rest of us, the most iconic part of the filth thing is probably when the first see that they are first monolith but only appears there and the music changes and everything, when the apes come less will, reality actually gets really horror like and it's just such a jarring image and there and it's jarring for a reason and Kubrick is really showing us about how much of a difference this one thing made and how I sort of shocking it was. And I love the way the sequence isn't just a two minute sequence. It actually takes up around twenty minutes or so of the film, because it's sort of allows us into this all sense of security with these ap or ape like creatures going about their daily routine until suddenly they see the onolith. I think every single appearance of the monolith is probably my favorite part of the film. I just love the appearance of it and what it represents and the way it's so daunting it spite of just being an animate object. I think it's also with noting that the film actually starts with a black screen with just music playing of it. That runs for a few minutes and I can imagine audience is going to watch it for the first time being quite confused for a while. This is just silence and music and then you've got all these apes fighting every resources. It doesn't really conjure up what you imagine a science fiction film to be, and it's just cubricks way of in an intelligent, thought provoking storyline really gets you engaged and gets you intrigued as to how this is going to unfold. I'm really glad...

...he brought out the music, because that's actually the one thing I really associated with two thousand and one and the one thing that doesn't really get enough credit, except the obvious team music that's played everywhere. But I'm not just talking about the symphonysy. I'm talking about then tires sound design, because it is to me the film is so stripped apart from emotion and what really draws me in, at least, is the sound design. It's the heightened breathing, it is the use of the entrance and just the way it mixes between symphonies, silence and these exaggerated noises that not just brought me that makes me a bit an easy it keeps you on your toes and it makes everything so much more involving and I think the music and the sound design really is a mature star in this movie. I totally agree with you there, ques. I think the classical music brings and elegance to the model work of the ships gliding through space. That really seems quite fresh and exciting. It's not something that you're used to. That's a juxtaposition of these huge hulking objects moving through space and then some delicate classical music playing along, and it works really well. I definitely agree that the use of music is essential to a two thousand and one is to the point that I was extremely surprised when I discovered that the music that is used with the bondolith that so mentioned and again on the section of the Moon is actually a pre existing piece of music. It's very leghetty, you know, modern classical composer and it that was to strange to me when I learned that, because it really feeds that the music was made for the film. One other thing I mentioned with the music is that it has become has become so iconic and so associated with the sutain in one that's it's almost weird to see it now. The first time I soughtw thousand and one, the Second Section, and I guess I still think that is to me perhaps the weakest section of the film and part of that. At the first time I watched it I wondered about the Great Blue Danube, that the music that is used with spaceships lending. I wondered how ironic he was being with the use of music because and now when you use that it's generally kind of ironic because it's this very, you know, elegant waltz and people use it ironically all the time. And I still not know really, because cubic has a great sense of humor in most of his films. I do now think that he was being maybe purpose from with that. It's still an opencussion to me. Are we supposed to see this as majestic and beautiful? Are we also supposed to see that maybe two grandiose, two pompers? I don't know. I think a music is about the elegance of it and the music is definitely very iconic throughout two thousand and one. When the question was brought to US earlier, thought it was just for the most iconic image rather than most a comic part because therefore the whole soundscape of the film is incredibly well done and I agree with what Matthew has said that a lot of the music is very iconic now, so the point where if it gets used in another film, that gets used in the TV series, the instantly springs to mind. But that's true pretty much all the films throughout Kubrick's career. was always big in the classical music and from things from a clockwork orange or the way up to eyes wide shot, just the way different a socol music is done. If I hear that sort of music out of context now or that really springs to mind is the way it was used by Kubrick. You know, I don't think I have that with other Quvic FIMS actually. I mean he definitely uses lots of classical music, like bit o than a dot in the clock of orange. But I think we the two thousand and one is is the one where you cannot, to me, dissociates the music from the images. The on Song I automatically associate a Kubrick film with is actually not a song that was primarily used for a Tubrick COMV sectories are at the very beginning of the clock of orange when he's singing singing INS arena. For some reason, whenever I'm hearing this song, I'm first thinking of the singer in the clocal orange be for thinking of the original singing the rain. Yeah, I think that's incredibly comment. That's certainly associated with the clockwork or ands as well. Yeah, really. You another come up in discussion that we had a bet our favorite films. I think I'm a will back it came up, but I said, you know, I had actually deliberately put off watching singing in the Rhine for largest number of years because I didn't think I'd be able to appreciate it with a clockwork orange being one of the form of films that I saw in the first few years of becoming a film buff. But throwing this back to two thousand and one a little bit, there is one thing in the second act that is quite interesting and I guess most people prob they think...'s the weakest and unless they really hate the apes, which are a lot of people do, it's through. But one thing as as that to me, especially on my reason rewatch, is just how much it's clear that two thousand one loves being in space. I mean, I know it's so often viewed as cold, a meticulous, but if you look at these early scenes, for instance the space hostess walking with his shoes and just focusing in on the shoe to show how it works, and he are struggling, but how much joy it takes in people switching the direction if they are walking in it clearly just loves it. It really, really loves it. See, I wouldn't use that I wouldn't say that way to me. The film is obsessed with technology. That's what it is and that's how I interpret it anyway, and with technology being both a tool for human kind to evolve and to explore the universe, but also to ask can alluded to perhaps destroy itself. I mean this was made in the s when the sute of nuclear war was ever present and I think that's really hangs over the thing. And so I would not say that the film loves being its space as much as it's obsessed with technology. Yeah, fair, fair enough. I just think that in those really things you have that kind of look, we're in space, feeling that so many of the earlier s, fifty s and even thirties films. But it is a really interestingly plotted film. As well. We talked about the early minute where it's just black space and music, and this twenty minutes scene we just apes the prehistoric man in the surroundings. And then after all of that we move into this second act we've talked about, which doesn't really do that much. It handshakes and small talk and a multivational speech. A lot of this focus on the semi bureaucracy, essentially, and then remove arm to probably the act that everyone remember, members, and we're probably going to start spoiling things that bit too. But we do move into how versus Dave and the actual things that happened on the discovery with perhaps most iconic character of the entire film, how nine thousand, which, ironically, at least to me, almost acted the most human of all of the characters, Chris. I think this is one of the best acts of the film. Super Computer, how Kuba gave life to it. Chilling Lee, enigmatic character that jeopardizes the mission, and it's notable that the risks and dangerous face boy the astronauts to this stage are due to humanities own making answers with dangerous planets or life forms. We've created. This robot is designed to help and aid the mission, but it becomes the missions own on doing as it progresses. Yes, how very much is the most emotional character in the film. In fact, assuming we are going spoilers from no one, the most emotional scene in the whole film is his death. It's much more emotional than the death of the first astronauts. There's no question about that. I think Kubik is definitely in thiscentth Houpe, and it shows in this film right. He has much more empathy for humanities creation than for humanity itself. Yeah, that's scene where all I don't know if you can say that he dies, but the scene where Dave turn him off was the scene that I was talking about earlier on when we were asked about the most striking scene. Yeah, it seems that that scene looks like someone crawling through almost a human brain, almost something system that is human, and it's certainly upped by the fact that alice talking to Dave throughout the process, with all telling him not to do it and that it will be better from now on, and to see him coldly and meticulously turning off, one by one all of his system, making him regrets more and more, was truly fascinating scene. Even so, it's just a robot that was created by humans and doesn't have any feelings. It's still very, very almost is a very emotional scene and almost sad in a way, even though I'll try to well, pretty much killed Dave by not letting him back into the ship just before and filled for other astronauts as well, my dear but I...

...could. I completely agree. I mean it's such a sad scene. You know, it's pegging for his life, essentially, and as the memories would more and more the voice regresses. You can just feel this kind of extreme melancholy and I don't think that was felt for any of the human characters. The humans are very quick death, while as a very slow one that that last for a few minutes and given us way more time to really appreciate and feel what's going on the screen compared to the other deaths that were pretty pretty quick and cuddly filmed. That's a fair point, Clem. The death is definitely very drawn out, for how compared to Frank's death. However, I think you guys in general being a bit too harsh only human characters. I think Dave is a pretty great character. We don't really know that much about frank. We don't find out much about it. I think the struggle that Dave has to go through and basically disconnect what seems to be a sentient being. I think it's definitely quite art ranchy, but also just the way as to keep up here's appearance when talking to how, but so like a showing how there's nothing wrong, trying to look him directly in the eyes when talking to him. I think it's quite a feat what care delay. Yeah, at to who plays Dave managed to do othering. It's a magnificent performance there where it's got so much insecurities but it's not able to let it out and let it show. Less the computer at tod it, you know. Way that wouldn't be good for him here. Any part of Dave's character, which I don't really like. It's really my major floor with a film overall, is the lip reading scene. It's very scary when we suddenly realize that the our computer is reading their lips as they're talking about him. However, way the same players out frank and I ever constantly looking at how as a discussing him. Even if you couldn't read lips and making it very obvious they're talking about him. So that part of it I didn't really like too much. It's something which is got worse or worse real and each viewing. And in general I just really love the enture between Dave and how I think it's really well done and I think Dave is a really great and a really complex character. But I would agree that frank is pretty much I throw away character who does get literally thrown away during the film. It's to come to Dave, and frank's defends a little bit that. I think it's also case of humanity simply underestimating it's on creation and does not believing that how would be capable of reading anything into it. That is, reading their lips, but underestimating the way that how what's in so many ways sentient. I think it really just thought of him as a machine at that point, and we're not the real ty would be paranoid or have any of these feelings that you so clearly had. Well, I guess I agree with Sol that the end of the being they ever in the deep readings in because this one there actually already suspecting. It's a good point. It's why they are isolating themselves, but where I do disagree with. So I don't think Dave is that great character. I don't think it's a character at all to me. He's represented of humanity and audience so gets but I don't see much character in him. And I think what you mentioned about the way he lies to have I think it's very relevant. He dies better than the computer, he is colder and more clinic, or he's more efficient in the end than the computer. I think that's the way Kubic approaches this character is pretty damning, well, pretty cold any way towards humanity. And yet I mean I think it's interesting, but I don't see him as the character. Ready, I just found all of the lying scenes to be very nuanced. We get it in pretty much close up because we're seeing dave as house seeing him, and just the way that care do you like pause a certain points, making sure to keep direct contact with him when telling the greatest lies and try to keep his fears hidden. I just think it's a more complex performance and maybe other people make it out to be. He's not just somebody who's lying because he is capable of lying. He's actually really literally scared for his life about what house type who love doing and yet he's managing to refrain from confininger riverly to how? I don't know. I mean I've seen the film a times and I just always feel very in...

...there with direst performance and always really feel for the situation that he's in. S tipically. I'm not criticizing the performance. I think it's good. I just don't see the COCTA in the same way. Yeah, I can really see where material is coming from here, but also results come from. I think the actor who plays they really has a lot of presence and you can feel that presence, especially as he asserts himself against how in the periodal scene where he literally jumps from outside of space without the helmet into the spacecraft and the man who's to survive, and you can feel his survival instinct. But I think the reading of him as a representative of humanity strikes me as very true. And what they really need to talk about as well is the film's Actual Final Act, which is probably the shortest act, but the most odd, the most surreal and the one that probably had everyone scratching their heads, the moment when day actually comes face to face with the Mamol it and it's a very interesting scene. You see the manlit hole ring, you see his face and that suddenly we end into this fishual landscape of just hyper speed. It's like a complete acid trip it. It's increbible to watch. Until we finally find ourselves in what looks like a nineteen century bedroom, a kind of luxurious large bed and consistently aging day. Just walk in their confused, laying down on the bed, growing older and eventually seeing the monol it or a monol it before him and turning into the Legion dary. Not even sure if you can call it creature. Image is probably more applicable, but this space child floating and eventually floating in space the picture that's used on so many posters of the film. But that's so little screen time. What is your impression of this final ending like? What the interpretations, what are you feelings about what happened in those last ten minutes? Regarding the hyper speed sequence, it's interesting because when you look at it it kind of looks like a screen saver. Now, I mean you know it's kind of pretty basic the way camping does it, but in context it works great and I think a lot of that is in the cutbacks. Today's face, I think could be really use is in that sequence in particular and generally in the film, the Kurdish off effects right, the fact that when we look at a blank face in context, we describe emotions to it, and I don't think there's a performence here that's also allows it that really can project anything onto him, because the reaction to such an insane event it's impossible to know what it would be like, and so I think wise very smart in the way he approaches this section. But I really love how Kuber it takes us on this surreal, PSYCHEDELIC head trip towards the end, and there's a great contrast between the journey that Dave takes through hyperspace at this incredible speed and all these beautiful visuals that flash upon the screen to when he arrives at the end destination of this room and he's faced with visions that maybe from his past or projections of the future. And it's never clear exactly what Kubic's intent is to me, because different interpretations that can be made and it's the end and it's an end in that kind of poses more questions than it answers. It's so brilliantly shafts and it just feels like you want to bask in the glory this moment. It leaves you kind of stunned, speechless. What on Earth if we just seem but at the same time it's just an incredible end into a wonderful film. I do really like the hyper speed saying and or the defferent colors and objects and everything that we see, which sort of represents all the unknowns, because nobody knows what it's really like to travel through space like that. The ending is definitely a curious one and, I thought, provoking one. What I really love about it is all of the reaction shots. So sort of like yeah, delay at a younger Shage, maybe in this s looking in one direction and and seeing himself slightly older, and then you sort of hear a noise and looking at another direction and then he's older still, and then just with the monolith at the end there. And I've heard different interpretations of the ending. I...

...think the one that seems to make the most sense to me is it's sort of about the aliens or some sort of alien life studying him and they'll sort of waiting until a humankind was advanced enough to be interesting enough to study over a lifetime. It's definitely one of those endings that make you go a bit hard the end of it, but but in a good way, and with the whole moon child symbol at the end it's sort of like the circle of life, or the least that's I've heard an interpreted, but I think it's just a really great journey, even if you can't quite make sense of it. It's sort of like going into the vast unknowns of space, and you know, that's what I really like about sci fi films. It's the infinite, I'm known, infinite number of possibilities and that none of us really know what's out there for sure. So I agree with you that those cuts are great at representing relativity of time, which is a concept we all kind of familiar with, but that is so hard to really put into images, and I think bick does that in a great way. Obviously there are many ways to interpret the ending, especially the way we go back to some images at the beginning with the negative images of earth. My take on it is that there was some sort of alien life that's bestowed this gift of technology on to us. At the start of the film with the monolith and we did badly with it. So I think again it's the very s view to me of technology, of where we created the nuclear weapons and we all going to destroy yourselves and we failed. And I think I see the ending as being a restart. Basically that's why we see again some images that we saw other starts. To me it's like, let's start all over again and try to do it better, because we said that's interesting. I always had a slightly different interpretation with was that this was next stage. So the way I thought all with humankind at the weird dawn of Man and developed humanity in some way so they could get on the passage where they are today, and now this is the next stage with this incredible space child. But your interpretation works really well. Do think I have a similar understanding I view Chris. Basically it's the idea that this alien species of set monoliths at various points throughout the solar system to monitor the progress of humanities evolution so that they can keep tabs on how we are doing, whether they need to intervene, whether we're becoming a threat to them. There's lots of possibilities in why they might want to monitor us and perhaps an impact on our development. And again it's one of those ideas that is open to different interpretations as to why they would want to be interested in development. I think the model of cement to represent the logical development. So it's sort of as soon as the ape see the monolith, they suddenly create their own weapons, as soon as it's dug up on the moon with suddenly get all this new technology coming about to travel all the way to Jupiter and beyond. So it's sort of like saying that a look of technological developments are really hard to come by and when there's suddenly such a drygadic influx in innovation, maybe it's not due to something human, maybe it's due to something extraterrestrial, and maybe there's something out there that is pulling US along. Well, I don't have anything much to add. I think you're made very convincing points. I person need do not have an interpretation of as the ending. Even so I try to found one. I think the last three minutes or so, or at least the Final Act, is absolutely gorgeous to look at, probably one of the best moments of the film. I think it would symbolize, as you said, going back, going through space, going back in time. Maybe. I think they were. There are lots of different interpretation that could be made, and I think that's what I like so much about it, that it doesn't give you clear answers and you can always give it your own interpretation and make it say what what you want, and that is probably one of the reasons why two thousand and one keeps living on in our collective imagination as well. And let's go over to its main competitor for a title as the most respected Sci fi film of all time. We open up this episode with the premise that two thousand and one represents something conceptual, while Solaris is more intimate, peering into the human psyche. But it is also, in the way, philosophy on screen. As Tarkowski, it's one of the greatest visual athletic directors of all time and which you might know himself,...

...said he had no interest in sci fi in itself or futurism. He clearly paints a more interesting story and tale of humanity itself. We Follow Chris Kelvin as it travels to an almost defunct and abandoned space projects to see if you should be scrapped all together. But what he discovers is that the stories that have been mocked for years are true. The planet covered in see is costing something, and it is more than just how Lucin nation. Soon he wakes up to see his deceased wife, and the mix of horror and longing is absolutely incredible to explore on screen, but not quite to everybody. We do have at least one dissenting voice in our mix, so let's start with the contrarian. For me, space exploration con use up the idea of great spectacles alongside when imaginable peril is astronauts encounter the unknown and try to gaining understanding of the immensity of their discoveries. I feel like so I iris is lacking in both visual spectacles and also peril. It's a subdued film which thrives on existential dreads as slowly becomes consumed with grief and paranoia. There are my few visual spectacles, but these don't have the power impact. I've say the remarkable final hyperspace sequence of two thousand and one that we've just discussed, and it is at times easy to forget that this is a film set in space. Tarkovsky is far more interested in decepting the human piety searching within Francis to the vast questions we ask when gazing at the stars, and as such, this is a film that I admire yet have been unable to connect with in a way that I have with two thousand and one. I think if you do view Solaris as a space exploration film, I think you are down to be disappointed. I don't agree about the visual spectacles. I think the images, such as the thirty seconds of weightlessness and the our final image and that pullback, I think just as striking as anything in two thousand and one or the scene wherefore was asleep and the camera sort of zooms in and his face and then zooms out to have hary sitting next to him. But I think it's an extremely visual film. I really love the images in there. Throughout there isn't much sense of peril. I do agree that you forget the characters are in space. I think that's one of the strengths of the film, that it's not sort of married to the idea of being a space exploration he goes up there to explore or spires or try expose of the mysteries of it, only to get sidetrack by something else along the way. And that's of course quite people to the plot, because the plan is trying to defend itself by trying to side track or try and get the people who are seeming to attack it. Of course. Look, I understand why I might not be overwhelmed by the film, but I guess the parts of it that he finds to be wakenesses are really things that I find to be strength. And I've got a few of the things I'd like to say about s Lars because it's my third favorite film of all time, but I'll let some other people speak first and we'll see what they have to say. Well, so I'll guess that you have to you have to do a bit of defending. Of first all, I'm Sorliaris after I've done talking, because I think I have to agree with Tom a bit here. I re watched it last night and I think I appreciated more this time than before. So maybe after a few more viewings I will also consider it to be one of the best term of all time. But for now on, for on the my second viewing, I think it's it's definitely a good film, but I failed to see what makes it so great, what's make it so highly considered. As Chris said, I didn't know before, but Dakovski is not interested in science fiction and honestly it shows. The ship looks not really worked on at all. It is quite dirty and almost abandoned. You can tell that those living on that ship doesn't really care about it state anymore, and the fact that the task of ski...

...doesn't really care about trying to show spaceship that looks good and is well cleaned. I think it's really about mind exploration. I was not expecting a space exploration film, so I was not disappointed, and that's regard. It's really about mind exploration and the barriers, I would say, in our own mind in some way, that prevent us from going further and or going on with our life. The visuals are not that appealing to me, at least. I would say. I definitely prefer the visuals in two thousand and one, not only because there are no images of space where, because there are a few, but it's very, very little, but also because the spaceship doesn't really look that interesting in the first place. The characters themselves do not are not that interesting. At least some of them are not, even though they are very few. So yeah, overall not a bad film, but I still I think I'm still missing something to really appreciate it. So maybe now that you, Chris, Matthew and so or are going to speak, maybe I'll see why you consider it to be so great and maybe I will change my mind. And it's a between a if I ever rewatch it as sort of time I have mentioned in previous podcasts. That's a last is a film that I've watched a lot and that has gone up a lot in my steam over time. It initially started out as a five out of ten film for me when I first saw it, as a fourteen or fifteen your own, and I was expecting other two thousand and one a space odyssey, but some things kept drawing me back each time, and after seven viewings I'm now very confident of my very positive opinion about it. Just going on to something that you've gone quite a bit about. Claim about the ship. It is in a state of disrepair and it is for a reason. I don't think it's a case of Tarkovski not caring about the ship design. I think it's the characters themselves not caring they've initially gone on this mission and then where these visitors are come up and sort of challenged, or the receptions of reality. I don't think it's unreasonable at all that the ships fall into a bit of a state of disrepair. I do like the ship design in general, with all the curves and all sorts of like they are red and Marone walls. I think it's nicely design ship. I do a great to state of disrepair, but I don't think that's a weakness. Is Interesting how you and Tom of gone on about the visuals because, okay, look, I can argue this, I guess, until the cows come high. Look, I think the visuals are magnificent. Even beyond the visuals, you know what about the music? I think just that soft, mournful, you know, parade music. I think it's just perfect for the film. But I guess, when it comes down to it, what do I really like most about splash? I think it really does well. I think it's all about the unknown, our fear of the unknown and how we approach the unknown. I got more of a sense of this on my latest viewing and any of the other viewings the children at the start of the film are extremely important. They just seem like throwaway characters the first couple of times you have the boy who scared of the Horse, and that's just such a great, you know, metaphor for what the astronauts find when they come across the visitors. They act in fear because it's something I known and yet, as the mother tells the belt it's a beautiful animal. It's not something you should be scared of. And even get things about the way with the two kids greet each other and they just green each other in the strangest, most excessively light way. Are All thought, myself, it's really odd, this sort of like curtching towards each other, but then you know that's about how they are approaching each other, meeting each other for the first time. And then we have these adults and space and they approaching the unknown with all this irrational fear and doing these crazy things like trying to blast the visitors, often space, trying to poison them, try and get rid of them in different ways and then trying to attack the plants allows which just ends up being worse for them. I think just much like under the skin the recent J think Glazer Film. I think it's a lot about, you know, how we react to the unknown and maybe shines a little bit of a dim light on humanity in that we always reacted it in this would like knee jerk ways, but a maybe not the most sense of way to approach something. Just because it's scared, just because it's given us. Because you've never seen a horse before doesn't mean the horse is going to hurt you. And saw the same thing with the visitors, or at least for me. I think what's interesting in this discussion is that it shows the how different those two films really are. They're always put together and from what I understand, Takovsky explicitly said that it was kind of a response or at...

Ist, that he was inspired in some way better as anyone. But they use space exploration. I don't think they both qualify as that. They both use it in very different ways. Could be us this two thousand and want to look at humanity in a very abstractor very general way. It's all of humanity that's being explored, not one particular human being, whereas Tarkovsky. So yeah, this is a very personal film, it's very emotional it's all about one character and how he reacts to what happens in the film. So in that sense, obviously you can still take away from it things about humanity in general, but it starts from the personal, whereas Kubik starts from the universal, and I think, though, that's those approaches are just fundamentally different and of course they appeal to different people. I would disagree, though, with claim about the spaceship and I think with Thomas. Well, I do like the spaceship. Obviously it's I mean it's not as front and center as it is in two thousand and one. You don't have anything, as you know, does thing as the jogging sequence in two thousand and one, which is amazing. But I do think the design works quite well and regarding the fact that it is a little messy, I kind of I quite like that. And it goes back to the position that Chris mentioned at the very start between start work and star wars. Right, one of the things that differentiate them. The start work is a very clean design and star wars is all about it's being used ship world, right. You kind of have that with certain one in Sodiari's as well, anyway. So yeah, it's the last thing I would say. So we about what we talk about now is about the visuals. I think again, it's just very different. I think both films are turning putting very different ways. So, yeah, this is the the images that really stick with me much warmer and much more enigmatic than in two thousand and one. I think two thousand and one it's even if they are there is room for interpretation. In that last part. I think it's relatively clear what the thing is doing at most times. It's kind of a basis but also somewhat clear. I think so. Yeah, this is much more mystical, as is Takofsky's Shimography in general, and the images that stay with me, especially images from the start of the film before we go in space. There's one at the very start we were just looking at plants in the water and it feel like we are looking at them as if we were looking at something from another planets, as if they were an alien line life form. And I think it's the same with that famed sequence in the Chunnel and where we see city scapes the last for ten minutes, which is kind of good test of litmus test of will not. You can like that movie and again it feeds like a bit like the film under the skin, like you're an alien in anadium planets and looking at this and looking at it in a whole different way. And so I think they just use this canvas of science fiction just very differently, and that's why we get those very different responses. I also really need to kick back on this idea that it's not really film about space exploration. Obviously the humanity and human psyche is at the forefront, but the entire film is about contact with alien life. All of the apparitions, all of the reactions that happened inside of the ship is based on the planet blow them and it's the interaction with attent in life form that's so different from humanity and the way they sentient life and to protect itself. And this is in so many ways the core of the film, and I'm not going to spoil the ending, but it is also ties into the beauty and poetry of the final ending, which honestly works even better for me than two tho once I think that the spaceship itself is honestly gorgeous and the fact that it is in disrepair add so much to it. I mean we go through a long period before we get to the spacecraft, just as in two thousand and one, where we actually learn a lot about it. We see an inquest about previous expeditions in black and white, clearly twenty plus years before we hear so much about how humans have tried to interact its right to understand it. And then we finally get there, we see it and we see how it reacts. I mean in some ways, and now it's not an exact comparison, but this the Chris Kelvin versus the planet. It's almost like they versus hell, in that the planet reacts a lot like how or other. It has a personality and a way to react. As you know, a non character, a character that you don't really imagine as a character, at least... first, but who really just wants to defend itself. And all of that said it, what to me is the most striking and what, at least to me, had to really click for the film to work, is just the connection between Chris and his wife, Harry, when he sees her and the way he reacts, because at first he just wants to get rid of her. It doesn't see her as his wife. He wants to kill her, and this is what the other characters in the film says to like this. They do this all the time. They see these separations and they kill them, or it's right to get rid of them in all of these various ways. But soon he just can't handle it anymore. He still sees Harry as his wife and he forms this close bond to her that he cannot break, and I think that it's this dynamism between these characters and between his humanity and his longing and his connections here that really makes the film become this almost just like two thousand and one, a representation of humanity itself, but in just such a different way. First off, Chris, I want to say that I agree with you thoroughly about the ending of Solaris. I find it absolutely devastating in the best possible way, and it really makes me go welly and live in a really swims around my mind afterwards. I'm almost sure. What I thought was interesting is that you mentioned the film or of listis misinterpreting it as being contact with an alien species. I don't think there really is any contact. They don't directly communicate with the planet. The planets sort of induces these hallucinations in their mind. The hallucinations are based on their memory, so it's not actually interacting with Harry is interacting with his memory of her and his memory of her mannerisms and everything, from the torn clothes with the space where she's pricked herself with the needle. All of that is how she appears and there though, for me it's about interacting with memories and, I guess, sort of getting lost in their mind. It is definitely very interesting as a very different type of adding contact one, but I don't think it actually is any contact. I think it's the planet just try and defend itself, although one of my favorite singless comes towards the end. I don't know if it's spoilers or not, but it's sort of at a point where you don't just see how you suddenly see the dog and all these other people also appear in the room and it's rather planets got to the stage where it's inducing all these other things in him also. Yeah, I don't know. I find it extremely dynamic film, although I don't know I'd call it an alien contact film. I don't know if we'd Court of the space exploration film, but it is definitely a film about, I guess, the vastest and the mysteries of space and what actually might happen if we went out to unknown child territory. So would you say that what happens in two thousand and one is alien contact? I'm make not short. So that was alien contact, Eire. That's actually interesting point. Through Ano there isn't actually any direct air in contact. Any contact has done through the monolith, which doesn't seem to have any life or mind of its own. I mean that makes sense because for me there both, but that's consistent. Yeah, same thing for me. Oh, because it's like if we send a word to speak to an Indian, not to speak, you know, to communicate in some way with an alien, we are still contacting that Indian right. That's it's interially happening. Communication having that, but discussion maybe okay, because like communication instrate to when there's no two way communication, either films or the communication is one way. Or least that's my feeling. I don't think any of them are anything along the lines of post encounters or alien or aliens. I don't think they're really along that line. By actually disagree a little bit on Solaris, because one of the things that especially if now this working on there is trying to communicate with the plan, trying to make it understand them, and it seems like the planet is trying to understand them in a way to is trying to understand what they are doing and trying to recreate their memories. In the way, alongside this, and we're going to get into spoilert area to really later, but that's also in the way how the film and up. Yeah, I mean I think, yeah, I guess it's hard to say with our spoilers, but I do think there's definitely two way communication. Is just kind of difficult to it's not in words, it's not in language, but I think the planet, he is trying to communicate with them by going into their mind and showing them images they are familiar with. I guess in the case of...

Kelvin, a pretty the planet appears to him in performance very familiar with being his wife. But maybe the planet doesn't realize that the images it's showing to the passengers of the spaceships are images that are actually destroying themselves. Not Destroying themselves necessarily, but you know, images. Maybe they want to do good and show images to them that they're familiar with, but and voluntary, really show them images that evoke bad feelings to them and therefore bring sadness, where whereas they maybe want to bring you good by showing them images era famire with. Yeah, I think they're trying to look into their mind and find happy moments, right, and find happy things or positive things. I think that's the goal and the way it kind of goes wrong, or not entirely, but kind of, is what you mentionally about them trying to destroy themselves. It's just it's kind of like with how right it's just what you have created something. It kind of takes on the night and it's so and so. So, yeah, it's kind of making the same mistake. Then humanity is interming one. That's a very interesting prepretation. I've never thought of the planet as benevolently creating the images. I've always thought of them a law. Thought of the planet creating the images as a defense mechanism to throw through the characters off and sort of like how it gets worse and they start bombarding the planet with rays, creating the images to try and communicate with the astronauts in a civil way or in a benevolent way is really interesting. I've never born into the film with that interpretation before. With the visitors trying to kill themselves, though, that's something that I have been thinking about more and more with each viewing other film, and I don't think it's really a thing with the visitors over. I think it's more with Harry as a character, because the way that could remembers her ears suicidal, because he's remembering her as being suicidal. At every opportunity that he's not there, she tries to kill herself or harm myself, because that's just the way that he remembers her. I don't think the desert actually that unstable as such. You're probably right about how he actually earth. I think you're probably right there, I would say. I think you're waiting saying it's a defense mechanism. I think it's just it's not contradictory to me. It's basically so, yeah, is trying to be friendly with the humans so that the humans will be friendly with it. Right, okay, that's interesting to get under the thought of that way. I've always thought of the film is sort of like being about vulnerability of us because we can't control our thoughts and the planet can control thoughts. So it's sort of like the vulnerability as because of our imaginations and of the kind of ability of abstract thought, actually makes us vulnerable, which is a really scary thought. But I never thought that interpretation. I will watch the film for an eighth time eventually, or I'm sure I will the next twelve or eighteen months because I like it so much. I'll definitely think about that when I watched it again. I mean, you saw there. I think all you say is also true. Honestly, I always thought of the planet with a lot more. I'm big with it, because I'm not sure if it is a sentient agent or something that's simply reacts to what's happening around it and the input it's getting, and I think there's a lot to talk about there. But let's just jump into the spoiler section. Spoiler warning, because that final image to me, or the final scene, where everything you know is sad and done and Chris Kelvin is completely destroyed and thinking about going back to Earth. We go back to essentially the very first shot of the film, with which, by the way, it's gorgeous. It starts with water and ends with water and you have the exact same seem more or less again. He wores back to the House and he goes up the window and you notice something is slightly off. You notice that water is dripping and you see his father inside of the house, just as at the beginning, but water is just pouring down on him and it doesn't seem to mind and you just see Chris leaning against the window with some kind of absolute melancholy. As the camera asumes out and you realize that it's one of these newly created islands on so they aris and this is it's just such a heartbreaking scene in so many ways because it's humanity but it's not, and I think it ties in with what the planet actually does and what you've heard it do from the very beginning. It seems that the...

...planet is something way just recreates the experiences in the thought of humans and just puts them into life. Whether or not that it's too consciously recreate them and understand them or whether it's a reaction is unknown, but that's that final min image of half humanity and the sorrow in that it's just really harrowing to me. I think the ending links in nicely with the previous point we're making as well whether Shallaris has an agenda, because the image of his farther with the rain kind of coming down on him in doors, I can't really interpret any papers behind that other than the planet just trying to react to the internal thoughts that's it's taking from Chris. It seems like slightly off in its interpretation. That to me would indicate that there's perhaps no agenda behind what it's doing, and it is a good ending. It built into the bleak mysticism that is quite common throughout Tarkovsky's work and I do like it, though it didn't have the same impact, the same profound impacts, as when I watched two thousand and one. I'm also quite big on the end of North Lauris. I think it's a great ending, and the rain indoors is just such a startling thing when you first see it because the way of the scene is set up, it's all in I guess you'd call it medium short or medium to long shot, but it's not a long distance shot. So it just seemed like wandering around at home. He just assume that he's back on earth and I guess Chris Colvin does also. He assumes that he's back on earth, is completed. This journey only suddenly realized as are what's rating inside. No, actually could be back on earth. He just collapses there because what he realizes has happened at that stage it's not just laurs generating hiring as mine, it's the larist plan as managers to generate the whole of his father's home, including his father and his mind. So it's like he's totally lost in this fantasy which they can no longer distinguish from reality. Say, I just think, yeah, it's just an incredible while I end off a film, you sort of have this character who is then trapped in his thought processes. But regarding the ending of Soriais, it's something I still haven't settled on. I've only seen it twice, which is not that much compared to so. The first time I watched it, it's really, though, mean let me, I didn't know what to do with it, and the second time I watched it I felt like I understood it less because I was trying to understand what the ending was doing. I think in the end there is this interpretation that you guys more lesson, which I think sees it as a way for Calvin to deal with this grief or whether to not deal with it right he is accepting this fake version of reality because he doesn't want to accept the death of his wife. But I also think that this surreal feeling, this feeling that it is off, to me, you also get it at the beginning of the film, in especially the rain. You don't have the rain inside as you have at the end, but the rain is very certain and it's often sunny outside, and that again, it all always feels to me in the first half of half of him that we are looking at from an alien point of view, and so I always wonder if maybe the whole film is not taking place on so vias. I don't know, it's it's an ending that I find fascinating, it's startling and, yeah, it's one that makes me want to go back to its over and over again. Actually agree with you, Matthew, about the ending and the beginning of the film, and the beginning of the film, likewise, we don't actually see civilization, we just see Chris. As far as health, which seems to be in the middle of the Wilderness, a middle of a non civilized area. So yea, for all we know that part of it is also taking place in Solaris. And it gets the point where, I guess Chris, as aren't a, would have distinguish, and I say from reality, and I guess that's really scary thought. I think the interpretation that all, if it's really hard, if quite wild, could work. I mean my interpretation of ending is that it's not Chris, it's just a representation of Chris. But I love that there's so many ways of seeing this. And going back to the opening question of this debate, then, which of these films do think have the greatest impact? Two Thousand and one, or so they are is, in terms of the greatest impact on culture in general? I don't think there's video contest. There thousand one obviously on me. I don't know. I love both of them. They then similarly. I don't know. I love, I don't I just cannot choose. I do think one thing about the two is that is kind of interesting also is they both have kind of a twitter section.

You know, the third parts in two thousand and one and let's so inside eyes, but when he first shows up on the ship, it's very wowing and they, you know, nerverwacking what's happening. And it's kind of the case of all of these films in this genre. There's always something men singling on just because space is dangerous. I do think that's when unifying thing, even in these two different films. I love that to mention that actually, because that those first scenes when he arrives to spaceship and he sees the separation around them and you have this little clinging in the air and he seeth the shapes walking around, that that's genuinely unnerving. It's done so wonderfully well, and I think another really interesting comparison between the films is that both use classical music in their scores. But to answer the question I myself asked, I guess I can agree completely with material in that in terms of cultural relevance, there's there's no comparison. Two Thousand and one wins, but personally, I think fully ours is far stronger, at least in its impact, because going into humanity in that way and playing with feelings that are obviously intuitive and that this is something bold films do so well. We talked about day representing all of humanity and us being able to read anything into him. That works. But Kelvin, we're it's the same way, and I just feel like the emotions and the closeness he has bought to his both of the representation of his diseased wife, but but also in terms of representations within this planet's mind. I think this, that representation of humanity strikes me as so much stronger because it's just this intuitive association and I at least fell into right the way I can understand why everyone acts the way they do, and then you add in this melancholy and sadness and desolation to it, it just becomes so wonderful. Both our favorites of mind. Both are absolutely fantastic, but I just feel that so the ares captures my emotions so much stronger than two thousand and one can, and and very obvious reason as well, because two doesn't one is, of course, quite a much colder film. It's quite a difficult comparison to make, and I think this can be the same with a lot of science fiction films that deal with space explanation, because the vastness of space and the possibilities that are out there means that there's going to be huge differences in how the filmmakers depicts our expiration of the unknown. And I suppose it comes down to the more subdued introspection of Shalaris versus the grand scale and spectacle of two thousand and one. And for me it's the visual scale and spectacle of two thousand and one that had the most found impact on me. A suppers were films that are not so clear, course, and are open to interpretation. Our personal experiences can impact our enjoyments and have a decize a factor on what we enjoy the most, and for me it is two thousand and one. Yeah, I will agree with Tom. I preferred visual impact that two thousand and one had on me. I don't know if I would agree with you, Chris, when you say two thousand and one was colder than solar ice. Actually I so. I thought it was the opposite. I think Solaris is way more corder and distant than two thousand and one. I think two thousand and one has this very strong quarters, especially a lot of red through hell and through the first scene with the apes at the very beginning, while Solaris has way more Pale quarter in comparison in terms of which films more iconic. There's no contesting at that. Two Thousand and one space or to see. But in terms of which film I prefer, I do prefer so lars, but I don't know if I could say that I prefer it objectively. I have a normous respect for the film because it's a film that I started off thinking was mediocre and a film that has improved on my steam over the years, and it takes a lot for a film to do that. So I really admire that and it also feels more of a personal favorite. I mean two thousand and one a space odyssey as being the number one film...

...on the ICM forums top a thousand list for the last few years. It's in the or time top ten and they shoot pictures. So two thousand and one space out. He's a very common favorite and it doesn't feel like a big personal favorite. With Solaris, it's a film that is highly respected, art not to the same degree, so it feels more like a personal favorite. Like Chris said, I do think that emotionally, Solaris resonates more with me, but I do love both films a lot. They're both of my all time top ten. Solaris is higher up there I don't know if it's because it's a more unique favor. I don't know if it's because I don't understand it. I do respect the fact that I understand it. I guess with two thousand and one, a space odyssey maybe thinks a bit more clear cut for me by the something that keeps drawing me back to Laris and I guess I have a normous respect for it. Also keep getting drawn backward, even though it's a threehour film, and I haven't really had the same experience with two thousand and one. But look part the right films it's hard to make the core. But if I made the core by whisky would be solars when the declared if I didn't mean that the visual were called Er in in two thousand and one. I think that's a great point to visual was actually a lot warmer and I love the use of red in two thousand and one. I was more talking about the way humanity is depicted. Okay, all right, I thought you were talking about on. These are visuals. But yeah, I would agree with you. I think both visions of humanity are quite cold in the way they are end old. But yeah, and I know that no, yeah, no, I definitely see what you which you meant, Chris. Okay, well, I thought both of you were talking about all our other and Cordcam, you so out say you know, that makes sense now, which I maybe delight that. I thought come off funny when I said it, but it didn't and they were no, no one to laugh. So as I didn't say yeah, I know, I was too busy guessing the deciding goods. Oh, yeah, I can see you're in a complete not the deadlock. Yeah, and so after some investigation, it looks like I'm ranked two thousand and one, just five ranks higher than so. Yeah, it's made it in the Natus, I seem favorite movies ball. So two thousand and one wins this thin model by a whiskey. Is Soldier in to demand a recount now of all the votes? All right, it's fine, I like make favorite. No, yeah, I know, with the election and all know it's better having unique fabor and I think even with things like the big debate I had earlier on the year with video drawing versus funny Alexander, I think video drives more of a unique favorite. So I felt it's more of a personal favor, where as funny and exams, you know, a more common favorite. I don't that makes any sense, but good solaris films more feels more like my film, wherese two thousand and one feels more like our film, and it's not the beautiful way of putting it. So, on this note of the fact that the debate is, at least for these five people, by whisker of five ranks, the debate can be closed. We have the cleared. A win there. We will be back shortly with necessment of the later entries into the Space Exploration Chambra and, of course, the key flashback to ichery XP, one one of the best pre Solarius and two thousand and one sci Fi's and, some would argue, one of the very first films you'll call a modern SCI FI. So with leaving you once again to glance out at the vastness of space. Thank you for listening and join us again soon. You have been listening to talking images, the official PODCAST OF ICM FORUMCOM.

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